Trans Clothing Exchanges and NC Gender Bigotry

[ChrisM]

And this one: http://www.vox.com/2016/3/25/11305188/n ... throom-law

[bobmoore]

This isn't going to be popular here, but I fully suport gender specific bathrooms. Despite what many uninformed people want to believe, there are two, and only two, genders. Chromosome abnomalities do not constitute additional genders. Attempting to cater to every abberation, real or imagined, is the death of reason.

BTW, before the flames begin I'll mention that I hold multiple graduate degrees in reproductive physiology.

[Fred in Skirts]

This isn't going to be popular here, but I fully suport gender specific bathrooms. Despite what many uninformed people want to believe, there are two, and only two, genders. Chromosome abnomalities do not constitute additional genders. Attempting to cater to every abberation, real or imagined, is the death of reason. BTW, before the flames begin I'll mention that I hold multiple graduate degrees in reproductive physiology.

Hi Bob, First of all NO FLAMES HERE!! I don't think separate bathrooms are really needed for every day usage. Just one room with private stalls would work for me and many others, Open wash up area and many stalls with lockable doors is all that is needed.

As for your impressive education WOW is all I can say.

Fred

[Caultron]

This isn't going to be popular here, but I fully suport gender specific bathrooms. Despite what many uninformed people want to believe, there are two, and only two, genders. Chromosome abnomalities do not constitute additional genders. Attempting to cater to every abberation, real or imagined, is the death of reason.

BTW, before the flames begin I'll mention that I hold multiple graduate degrees in reproductive physiology.

How do you reconcile this with your interest in skirts for men?

LIke, if a man is wearing normally-male clothing on top and normally-female clothing on the bottom, should that keep him from entering either restroom?

Or what about a man dressed totally and convincingly as a woman? Wouldn't it seem incongruous for him to use the men's room?

FWIW, it seems to me that the recent North Carolina restroom law is simply a brazen attempt to harass those who don't feel bound to the gender on their birth certificate. The fun will begin when transsexuals start staging sit-ins or group-walkabouts in the restrooms they're required to use. Is that really want the North Carolina legislators want? Post-ops brushing their hair, putting on lipstick, checking their makeup, and pulling up their nylons in the capitol building men's rooms?

[pelmut]

...Despite what many uninformed people want to believe, there are two, and only two, genders.

Are you denying that I exist or are you confusing sex with gender?

BTW, before the flames begin I'll mention that I hold multiple graduate degrees in reproductive physiology

Assuming this isn't just a bad April 1st joke, it appears that your high-level education has failed you at a fundamental level.

[Judah14]

He surely meant sex not gender. And he meant that there should be restrooms to accommodate both sexes only.

[Sinned]

It just goes to prove confirm what we already know - that there is little intelligence among any of our politicians. And from the sound of it that goes for both sides of the Atlantic River.

Interestingly I don't think that such a law could ever be passed in Britainshire and would be against so many Europeanshire laws. Anyway some Europeans on the whole are stranger than we ever imagine.

[moonshadow]

Not to change gears.... but this snippet from the article Chris posted caught my eye:

When I started feeling male privilege during my transition, I vowed to myself that I would use that privilege to bring awareness to things that might not be popular to say," Comero wrote. "[A]nything else would be a betrayal of myself and my equity/feminist values.

No offence to the feminist transgender men out there, but to me.... that illustrates the difference between being a genetic man and playing one on TV. Just as a transgendered woman can't physically know the pain of childbirth or a monthly period, A transgendered man cant possibly know anything about "male privilage". As a transgender, you are already in a minority group, (soon to be) protected by antidiscrimination laws. He doesn't know anything about male privilage. There will be no more handouts and freebies just for being a woman. You wont have to worry about conscription, circumcision, loosing in divorce cases, etc. Law and policy are pretty rigid for cis genetic men.

There ya go Bob.... Ill take some of that heat.

Perhaps I just cant figure out what any one would WANT to be a man in this society.

I also find it hard to believe that a women's room is that hostile.

[Caultron]

..I don't think that such a law could ever be passed in Britainshire and would be against so many Europeanshire laws...

All it takes here, at least, is enough money dropped in the necessary hands.

And I suspect that, at least to some extent, that's true everywhere.

[dillon]

This isn't going to be popular here, but I fully suport gender specific bathrooms. Despite what many uninformed people want to believe, there are two, and only two, genders. Chromosome abnomalities do not constitute additional genders. Attempting to cater to every abberation, real or imagined, is the death of reason.

BTW, before the flames begin I'll mention that I hold multiple graduate degrees in reproductive physiology.

There are two chromosomal sexes. Simple sex genetics do not consistently influence gender identity or sexual preference in any predictable way. To state that gender and sex are absolute and inseparable is simply incorrect. But it's clear that science has little to do with the inability or unwillingness of social conservatives to fathom is that it's simpler and more successful to reconcile the body, or at least the lifestyle, to suit the mind than vice versa. You cannot make someone identify as a gender which they KNOW is incompatible with the person he/she is.

Even more absurd is the Huckabee hypothesis contending that anyone would risk the peril of being assaulted or murdered for declaring himself/herself transgendered simply in order to steal a glimpse of what is available on ten thousand websites. That's apparently an argument aimed at people so old, so rural, and so illiterate, that they have yet to touch a computer.

In this particular case, the legislature could have simply acted to secure consistent genitalia in places where it would actually be exposed, such as in school locker rooms. Factually, however, there is likely to be considerably more peeping by unidentified gays and lesbians in such situations where genitalia may be exposed by necessity, than by someone openly transgendered seeking to relieve themselves in the restroom that complies with his/her identity. Do the legislators really think there is a teen out there that has never seen a depiction of the genitalia of the opposite sex? If there is such a teen, then that only points up the state's failure to provide competent sex education.

It is incomprehensible that these social conservative legislators could be oblivious to the fact that unidentifed gays and lesbians are using public lockerrooms and restrooms without penalty under this law, yet these same old-white-men crap bricks over the nonexistent chance that a person understanding himself/herself to be, gender-wise, the opposite of his/her chromosomal/genital sex could even have an opportunity to peep at anyone's genitals in a modern public restroom. It's just a ludicrous assertion.

If legislators had restrained themselves to acting only on public and school locker rooms, this would be a non-issue. But you need only look at all the other ******** they loaded in that law, and you can see that the TG part of it is just a smokescreen. And it's also apparent that the entire bill was written by one entity: Art Pope, et.al.

At least this has shed light on the abject hypocrisy of a party that claims to champion small government and local control but then races to squash both if it deviates from their pseudomoral rhetoric, that nonsense being the opiate of their masses. What's wrong with letting Charlotte voters, through those they have elected, decide what's right and wrong for their own community, and then let the hicks from Podunk, NC, do the same for theirs?

The other good thing is that it will rid us of a terribly ineffectual governor, since he has now lost the support of the business community. Even Art Pope doesn't have enough money to keep Pat McCoalAsh in office now. In fact, given the national GOPs offering of a choice between an oligarch and a theocrat, I'm hoping for a clean sweep to throw the bums out!

Also, Bob, with all due respect for your credentials, those degrees in repro phys apparently didn't educate you in the psychology of gender. Your views are surprisingly unenlightened for a professional. My own graduate degree is not in repro phys, but it seems I may be rather more enlightened on the issue, if only because it affects members of my own family. That fact has prompted much self-education and self-reflection. Those have effected in me a POV that is both informed and compassionate, I believe. But I won't claim expertise I do not possess.

[Caultron]

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[dillon]

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[bobmoore]

Dillon, we can cordially disagree, can we not? I may know more about psychology and human nature than you think. My point is that society simply can not attempt to cater to, or pass laws forcing catering to, every variant behavior. Note that I did not say "wrong", I said "variant".
There are supporters of this foolishness out there loudly claiming that there are 5 genders, and the media fauningly reports such as fact. The idea, of course, is to create the impression of discrimination.

[pelmut]

...There are supporters of this foolishness out there loudly claiming that there are 5 genders, and the media fauningly reports such as fact. The idea, of course, is to create the impression of discrimination.

There are far more than five genders, there is a complete spectrum of gender, it is an analogue quantity. In actual fact, gender isn't even defined along one axis, but has at least two axes or possibly more: http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/Gen ... er.php#GEN

However, there is no fixed connection between gender and chromosomal sex, or between the secondary sexual characteristics (which also fall on a spectrum of morphology) and the use of sanitary hardware; they show a great deal of independence from each other. Dillon has already pointed out politely that your views are surprisingly unenlightened for a professional, I would add that your persistent use of the term 'gender' when it appears you mean 'sex' makes me even more concerned on this score.

[Stevie D]

...There are supporters of this foolishness out there loudly claiming that there are 5 genders, and the media fauningly reports such as fact. The idea, of course, is to create the impression of discrimination.

There are far more than five genders, there is a complete spectrum of gender, it is an analogue quantity. In actual fact, gender isn't even defined along one axis, but has at least two axes or possibly more: http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/Gen ... er.php#GEN

However, there is no fixed connection between gender and chromosomal sex, or between the secondary sexual characteristics (which also fall on a spectrum of morphology) and the use of sanitary hardware; they show a great deal of independence from each other. Dillon has already pointed out politely that your views are surprisingly unenlightened for a professional, I would add that your persistent use of the term 'gender' when it appears you mean 'sex' makes me even more concerned on this score.

I was doing my best to ignore this thread but I am unable to keep silent any longer.

I totally agree with everything Pelmut has written. His is the voice of reason and common sense and furthermore is backed up by modern ideas about sex and gender identity which are accepted by mainstream professionals.

Bob Moore - you are completely out on your own narrow-minded limb here. I remember you from years ago on this forum when it used to be Tom's Cafe. As I recall then you were convinced that the Earth was only 6000 years old (because that's what someone once deduced from totting up ages in the Bible and therefore it's got to be true, hasn't it?) So it's looking quite likely that your views on sex and gender are equally antiquated and misinformed.

Bob Moore writes:

but I fully suport gender specific bathrooms.

So - Bob, you and the good lawmakers and enforcers of North Carolina would jump on and prosecute/persecute my beautiful grown-up daughter - who nearly 20 years ago transitioned MtF and has been working as a successful business woman in the IT industry ever since - just because she naturally uses the ladies' public and work place toilets?
You would? Shame on you. These sorts of beliefs do nothing except take us back to the wilful pig-ignorance of the Dark Ages. If that's where you want to spend your life that's up to you, but please don't try to drag the rest of us there. Leave us free to get on with our lives sensibly and in peace.

Stevie D
(a happily very gender-fluid Earth Scientist and musician)


PS - Carl, please close down this thread, as I see it serving no useful purpose whatsoever.