No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Jim2
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Jim2 »

crfriend wrote: That having been said, I suspect I would find such a world somewhat boring insofar as there is really no boat to rock -- and, deep down, don't we all get a slight kick out of rocking the ever-so-stable boat. I know that I do
I don't! My only reason to see the boat rocked is because it doesn't let me feel at peace wearing what I want to all the time. You feel comfortable going in public however you like. But not all of us do. So I wear the clothing at home where my wife tolerates it but thinks it looks ridiculous. I don't want to feel that I'm being looked at as ridiculous. She knows that and is mostly respectful. You are tall, and that probably makes it easier for you. I am not short but I am by no means tall.

It is not fun to feel that how one would like to dress is mostly frowned upon by society and even most of the people I know (or would be if they knew). This is not a fun way to live. It is awful. A less judgmental, less sexist (for that is what it is - sexism) society is what we need.

Sorry for the anger but I just read an article written by a woman about how she never wears pants anymore, and much of her reasoning and the reasoning given by the women commenting on it was all about comfort of skirts/dresses versus pants. It depressed me to think that many of them would have frowned on a man wearing such a garment despite their reasoning being just as applicable. I wrote a comment there but as the article is 9 months old, probably few if any people will see it. But even if they did, it would not make a significant dent. I don't want to feel bitter and powerless (and usually don't - I'm thankful that my wife tolerates it and still is just as loving as ever), but it is hard to avoid.
Big and Bashful
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Big and Bashful »

Jim,
looking around this site, almost all of us have gone through the angst you are suffering, what are people going to think? am I going to get laughed at or labelled a freak? do people think I am gay? etc. Like many others, I plucked up the courage to try a skirt out away from home, where nobody knew me and where no gossips could spread the word back home. Like many others here I did that, then started wearing a skirt when travelling. Nobody commented, almost nobody ever asked questions, basically nobody seemed to care about my skirts. I started to relax more due to the complete lack of attention.
My next big hurdle was getting back to my house after a long trip, knowing that a friend was in the house working. I decided that for the first time, I wasn't going to change back into trousers just to go home. I was wearing a floor length denim skirt, not easy to miss as I lifted it to climb the stairs. The only comment was "Oh, you're wearing a skirt". I said yes, he has regularly seen me skirted, never anything else said. I have travelled down to London skirted to bring his car back after he had a serious health problem, other friends and his family saw me skirted, still no problem. I have wandered skirted around our village, but often change back into jeans because I still have my own mental barriers. I don't really want to be seen by workmates and I always change before visiting my sister's family. So I still have my own mental limits.
Sometimes the worry of "will they accept me in a skirt" takes away the pleasure and it's just easier to stick my legs in a couple of tubes.
I do have a couple of traditional tartan kilts, very expensive, they look great, are hard work and I almost never wear them,

I suppose we all have to cross our own mental barriers, those who are married also have to contend with their "other halves", that can be a blessing or a curse or so it seems, I don't have that support, or that curse, my cats definately like the long skirts, that'll do for me!
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Sinned
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Sinned »

Jm2, MOH is about the only one I know that disapproves of my skirt wearing! When she is at work I go out and meet no disapproval. I went to the Chemist to pick up my usual medicines and had a discussion with her as they have just had new software which has duplicated or triplicated some standing prescriptions and she didn't comment about my skirt, nor did any of the customers in the place. I was out shopping at a local trading park and the only notice ANYBODY took was a woman who did look back at me and pointed me out to her much older mother who looked the wrong way and then had to turn the other way to see me. It was sooooo obvious what was happening. I didn't see the end result of this and I just continued on. I did consider watching and waving but I wouldn't have done had I been more conventionally dressed.

The disapproval that we see is generally in our own minds! If MOH would just get our of her own world of prejudice and accompany me she would see what a big deal it isn't. Unlike you I no longer feel that weight of disapproval of the world at large. I don't feel that I look ridiculous either. I wore purple Adidas casual shoes today ( no socks ) and a white sleeveless Umbro top so I chose a purple cotton Fila skirt to complete the ensemble ( talk about mixing the brands ). I'm not tall ( 5'8" ) but not too overweight either. I wear brightly coloured clothes - trousers, skirts, tops, shoes so I don't exactly dress to blend in with the other drabees. Maybe at some time in the future I will decide to wear skirts all the time but at the moment I choose to wear jeans, shorts, skirts or trousers whenever I want to. The weather is warm and a skirt is cool and keeps me airy and well ventilated where it matters so I wear a skirt. Don't hide away as if it's shameful - life's too short and we allegedly only pass this way once so lift up your head, look straight and wear a skirt with pride. Remember that if you feel uncomfortable in a skirt then that's exactly what you will project. One of these days I WILL get MOH to accompany me out when I am wearing a skirt even if it's only the once.
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crfriend
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by crfriend »

Jim2 wrote:I don't [like "rocking the boat]! My only reason to see the boat rocked is because it doesn't let me feel at peace wearing what I want to all the time. You feel comfortable going in public however you like. But not all of us do.
That's something that will come with time and confidence, and it can't really be forced. Too, it's not a simple matter of "going in public however {I} like"; I put a lot more thought into what I'm going to wear when I'm putting on a skirted rig in the morning than I ever do when wearing trousers. That makes it sound an awful lot like work, but that's the way it is.
So I wear the clothing at home where my wife tolerates it but thinks it looks ridiculous. I don't want to feel that I'm being looked at as ridiculous.
Knowing how to put a good-looking outfit is a skill that can be learned, and sometimes it's down to trial and error with the occasional crack being made. I know for a fact that I've made some really colossal blunders in the past ("You look like a gorilla in a dress!"), but took those as object lessons that don't need to be repeated. Here's a hint -- don't use a mirror to judge what an attempt looks like; instead use a camera from across a room. Mirrors can trick the mind; photographs very rarely do. Digi-cams with remote shutter-releases are great for this sort of thing; cell' 'phone cams not so much. The important thing is to see yourself as others will see you which is why cameras are vastly more accurate than mirrors.
She knows that and is mostly respectful. You are tall, and that probably makes it easier for you. I am not short but I am by no means tall.
The next time she comments that you look ridiculous, ask why -- and don't accept any answer that doesn't focus of how an outfit works on you. Ask for advice; I've done that in the past with my wife, and she's usually very helpful and has helped me gain insight.

As far as the height goes, I suspect it's really immaterial. What matters is that you develop a style that suits your personality and cultivate that in ways that are difficult for onlookers to refute. It's more than just the skirt; it's the entire ensemble.
It is not fun to feel that how one would like to dress is mostly frowned upon by society and even most of the people I know (or would be if they knew). This is not a fun way to live. It is awful. A less judgmental, less sexist (for that is what it is - sexism) society is what we need.
This has been explored before, and all of us know that double-standards of all kinds are arbitrary and unfair. We also know that they unfortunately exist and persist. We need to try actively to break those down and consign them to the dustbin of history, and the only way to do that is to actively challenge folks -- everyday plain old folks on the street -- to think about how those double-standards are corrosive.
Sorry for the anger but I just read an article written by a woman about how she never wears pants anymore, and much of her reasoning and the reasoning given by the women commenting on it was all about comfort of skirts/dresses versus pants. It depressed me to think that many of them would have frowned on a man wearing such a garment despite their reasoning being just as applicable.
Don't worry about the anger, we all need to vent from time to time and I happened to be a handy target. But, I have a sympathetic ear, and one of the reasons that The Skirt Café exists is to help men over the hump of dealing with life in a skirt.
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dillon
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by dillon »

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think when Jim2's wife says he looks ridiculous, she means in any skirt, not just because of his sense of style of lack there of. Perhaps she can offer constructive criticism of his ensembles, but odds are she will never actually like the fact that he wears skirts. I'm not trying to sound the pessimist, just being realistic.

Jim2, it won't be easy, but if you are like most of us, you will find the courage to take that step into public, perhaps not in your own neighborhood, but elsewhere. It gets easier, but the odd looks from strangers will not go away in our lifetimes, I am afraid. Still, we all want to do this, feel compelled to do this, and it requires courage, boldness, and nerve.

As for style? Well, I dress in skirts a lot like I do in pants, i.e., with an outdoorsy look, a lot of blacks, greens, browns and khakis; those would be my style in either trousers or skirts. Some of my skirts are perhaps more feminine than others, thinking of those with ruched construction or faux ruching from drawstring hems, but I dont wear pastels, or florals, or frilly things, and few bright colors, and nothing that quite qualifies as lace. However, if the latter are your style, you just have to experiment until you make it work as you like it.

As the old saying goes: A mind is like a parachute; it only works when open. We aren't going to change society, but we may open a few minds along the way. It doesn't take much more than a brief social contact to let someone see that a skirted man is pretty normal in every way but his clothing. If people think they can extrapolate the workings of your mind from your clothing, they will, and we cannot stop them from doing so, but when they actually hear you speak, and get a glimpse of a genuine person behind the clothes, and behind the label their brains try to attach to you, they are given pause to reconsider their prejudgements.

Anyway, there is little any of us can do to make it easier except what we are doing...being ourselves...and letting you know we understand.

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But if you fall you fall alone.
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crfriend
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by crfriend »

dillon wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but I think when Jim2's wife says he looks ridiculous, she means in any skirt, not just because of his sense of style of lack there of. Perhaps she can offer constructive criticism of his ensembles, but odds are she will never actually like the fact that he wears skirts. I'm not trying to sound the pessimist, just being realistic.
It's possible that will be the case, but it's at least worth an exploration. If one never tries, one never knows.

There is ample photographic evidence here that skirted rigs can work amazingly well on guys. What's needed is the ability on the part of significant others to move beyond the stereotype of the drag queen and outright impersonators to the vastly more subtle world of what can make a guy's mind tick -- and usually clothing and style do not rank high on the list of things that guys tend to be interested in. Comfort does, as well as utility -- and skirted rigs can provide both; however, there remains cognitive dissonance on the part of the observer, in this case, those closest to the guy so considering ditching trousers every once in a while. This dissonance will not be overcome by force; down that road, which is the one that blokes usually plod, lies disaster. 'Tis better to follow, instead, the road of seduction -- the "gently, gently" approach without being pushy or demanding. Patience, in this, is a virtue, because it's very, very difficult for people to shed preconceived notions, and they need a compelling reason to shed them presented in a cogent, gentle, and non-threatening manner.
Jim2, it won't be easy, but if you are like most of us, you will find the courage to take that step into public, perhaps not in your own neighborhood, but elsewhere. It gets easier, but the odd looks from strangers will not go away in our lifetimes, I am afraid. Still, we all want to do this, feel compelled to do this, and it requires courage, boldness, and nerve.
The usual suggestions here hold -- make your first outing in a spot where nobody knows you and who'll you'll never see again. That eases anxiety considerably by lessening the chance you'll get spotted by somebody you (or your SO) know. Ultimately, it really doesn't matter all that much because most folks are so tied up in their own little worlds that much of what goes on around them goes unnoticed. That said, be ready for the occasional sideways stare or even a comment -- but don't let it rattle you. Naysayers, like dogs, can smell fear; don't give them the ammunition.
As for style? Well, I dress in skirts a lot like I do in pants, i.e., with an outdoorsy look [...]
This is the way that most guys start out, and that's entirely understandable. It can also work reasonably well if one pays attention to proportion (note that my body-type does not lend itself to short skirts). Once nice thing about skirts is that you can get them in positively brilliant colours if that's a style you're comfortable with. I have always been comfortable with brilliant colour, mostly in waistcoats, and so it was natural to adopt that for the skirts as well. Just be aware that in brilliant colours you will stick out, so be prepared to get noticed.
We aren't going to change society, but we may open a few minds along the way. As the old saying goes: A mind is like a parachute; it only works when open. It doesn't take much more than a brief social contact to let someone see that a skirted man is pretty normal in every way but his clothing. If people think they can extrapolate the workings of your mind from your clothing, they will, and we cannot stop them from doing so, but when they actually hear you speak, and get a glimpse of a genuine person behind the clothes, and behind the label their brains try to attach to you, they are given pause to reconsider their prejudgements.
This sums it up nicely; the key is to actively engage folks who make the effort to "break the ice" and talk to you. Engage them in an intelligent upbeat manner, and pretty much ignore the fact that you're wearing a nether-garment which most western males have never contemplated. Be you. That will win the day.

I like the Grateful Dead lyric, but somehow I am still drawn to "The Road Less Travelled" -- for indeed it has made all the difference.
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skirtingtheissue
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by skirtingtheissue »

For anyone experiencing the angst expressed by Jim2 and several others at the Skirt Café, I would suggest that the least painful way to venture out in public in a skirt is to first purchase a modern kilt that is specifically targeted to men, such as the Utilikilt or similar. My first was Mountain Hardwear's Elkommando, and I wore it in my home town and got no comments except compliments and a few questions such as "You're in a kilt! Where did you get that?" or "Is that a kilt?". Totally painless. I enjoyed it so much I was smiling any time I interacted with people, and happiness brings confidence. And when people asked about it, I could truthfully say it was marketed toward men. And yes, it does help to consider your complete outfit, but a modern kilt should go with lots of normal male shirts.

Gradually I trended toward women's skirts, which were usually fairly unisex and not frilly. I don't wear the Elkommando very much any more, but for me it was the perfect "gateway" skirt. And I second the motion that to have your spouse accompany you is very worthwhile. Mine quickly saw how much fun I was having in the kilt, and saw the positive interactions with others, and the reaction was "OK, no problem".

So after you master the kilt, you can try a plain, not very feminine skirt. And once you master that, you can try more feminine skirts if you wish. Little steps are sometimes the best way.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by rick401r »

skirtingtheissue wrote:For anyone experiencing the angst expressed by Jim2 and several others at the Skirt Café, I would suggest that the least painful way to venture out in public in a skirt is to first purchase a modern kilt that is specifically targeted to men, such as the Utilikilt or similar. My first was Mountain Hardwear's Elkommando, and I wore it in my home town and got no comments except compliments and a few questions such as "You're in a kilt! Where did you get that?" or "Is that a kilt?". Totally painless. I enjoyed it so much I was smiling any time I interacted with people, and happiness brings confidence. And when people asked about it, I could truthfully say it was marketed toward men. And yes, it does help to consider your complete outfit, but a modern kilt should go with lots of normal male shirts.

Gradually I trended toward women's skirts, which were usually fairly unisex and not frilly. I don't wear the Elkommando very much any more, but for me it was the perfect "gateway" skirt. And I second the motion that to have your spouse accompany you is very worthwhile. Mine quickly saw how much fun I was having in the kilt, and saw the positive interactions with others, and the reaction was "OK, no problem".

So after you master the kilt, you can try a plain, not very feminine skirt. And once you master that, you can try more feminine skirts if you wish. Little steps are sometimes the best way.

This the route I have taken. I started with a Utilikilt, then a Stillwater Black watch, then a kilt length denim skirt. I have tried some more feminine designs and although they were fine around the house I would not be seen out and about in one.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Jim2 »

Thank you all for your responses to my post. I kind of ignored this after I posted last week. I think it was feeling a bit painful and I also got very busy. I'm really happy I found this place (skirtcafe.org).

I still feel unhappy about the lack of acceptance in society (western society, that is, one needs to remember it is not universal). I have in fact ventured out in a skirt at times, and I now feel kind of ok to wear a kilt sometimes. When I vacationed on Martha's Vineyard during the summer, I wore a sportkilt that even my wife says looks good on me. And she let me wear it when we were together. I wore it to and from the beach, including going into stores with her afterwards, and rode the boat back to the mainland wearing it. But it felt easier doing that on vacation than it feels doing it now.And I've taken the bold step of wearing skirts when I sit in my backyard or mow the lawn - even with neighbors milling about. But the effort to wear a skirt away from my home is just too much. I would feel so self-conscious, it wouldn't be fun. It sounds like it gets easier over time, but right now, I'm not enough at ease with it.

When my wife said I looked ridiculous in a skirt, she meant that any man does. I've never gotten her to indicate whether one skirt works better than another. The best I've gotten is that she is more comfortable with some than others. Basically, the less feminine she sees it to be, the more comfortable she is with it. It has nothing to do with how well I've chosen and paired it with other clothes. (I actually don't feel much trouble with my style. I mostly have black skirts and wear them with what I wear my shorts with - t-shirts and sometimes a button-down shirt. And most colors work with a black skirt.) But there is progress. At one time, I started wondering about the future of our relationship, and I think she did too. But we came to an agreement - I can wear skirts (and even my one dress) around the house and away from the house as long as we are not together, and I agree to let her feel the way she does about it. We rarely talk about it, and that has helped calm things down. We are getting back to the loving relationship we have. So I guess I can't complain too much. But I so dislike wearing pants now, that it is hard to accept that it is so difficult for a man to wear unbifurcated clothing.

Lately I've seen a lot of women wearing dresses, while I'm out doing errands - in pants of course. They look so comfortable; it drives me a bit crazy. I don't dare buy another one, even to wear at home. I don't want to upset the equilibrium I've reached with my wife. The one dress I have is a black t-shirt maxi-dress and I wear it more like a nightgown than as a dress.

What I really want is to just relax and enjoy what I have and not think too much about what I don't have with respect to all this. But it has not been easy. I spend a fair amount of time searching for anything new on the internet about the subject of men wearing skirts. I probably need to stop.

Dillon said, "the odd looks from strangers will not go away in our lifetimes, I am afraid." That may be so but I hope that the idea of men wearing skirts as men will come to be accepted by most people as well as say earrings are now accepted on men. I think there is reason to believe it can happen, and happen soon - like within the next 10 years. My understanding from reading Wikipedia is that men wearing earrings started with pop music stars wearing them, and later it picked up with the general public. I think the wave of hip-hop artists doing so could be a similar thing. What do others think?
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Big and Bashful »

I have never tried wearing a black skirt in public, I always used to be surprised at the fact that nobody comments on denim skirts, eventually you start to feel that they are invisible. I get more comments when wearing a traditional kilt than when wearing an ankle length denim cargo skirt. I still haven't ever recieved negative comments. As the years go on it does get easier, I don't see me ever wearing one to work though, in my line of work it's best tust conforming and blending into the workforce.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Jim2 »

Big and Bashful wrote:I have never tried wearing a black skirt in public, I always used to be surprised at the fact that nobody comments on denim skirts, eventually you start to feel that they are invisible. I get more comments when wearing a traditional kilt than when wearing an ankle length denim cargo skirt. I still haven't ever recieved negative comments. As the years go on it does get easier, I don't see me ever wearing one to work though, in my line of work it's best tust conforming and blending into the workforce.
I'm lucky about work - they let me work almost entirely from home. As a result, I'm wearing skirts much of the time. When you say that about denim skirts, what length do you mean? I'm thinking of buying a long one to deal with the colder weather.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Big and Bashful »

Jim2 wrote:
Big and Bashful wrote:I have never tried wearing a black skirt in public, I always used to be surprised at the fact that nobody comments on denim skirts, eventually you start to feel that they are invisible. I get more comments when wearing a traditional kilt than when wearing an ankle length denim cargo skirt. I still haven't ever recieved negative comments. As the years go on it does get easier, I don't see me ever wearing one to work though, in my line of work it's best tust conforming and blending into the workforce.
I'm lucky about work - they let me work almost entirely from home. As a result, I'm wearing skirts much of the time. When you say that about denim skirts, what length do you mean? I'm thinking of buying a long one to deal with the colder weather.
Jim, many people say that a knee length denim skirt is invisible, I can believe that, if you don't really look or are a distance away most people just see shorts, an easy assumption for their brain to make I suppose. However, I also have an ankle length denim cargo skirt, made as a special order by Midas Clothing. I really like this one, ideal for cooler weather and for keeping the midges away in the Summer. There is no way it could be mistaken for jeans, however I have wandered around the streets of Sheffield, Glasgow, numerous service stations, several public houses and a guitar festival, wearing this one. No comments at all, sorry, in one pub a local asked me why I wore a skirt, I gave him an honest answer, "comfort" curiosity satisfied he went back to his other conversation.
I tend to alternate between the knee length version and the ankle length one, depending on my mood. With the shorter version I have to think about socks etc, and often use cheap "kilt hose" bought from Ebay, most socks refuse to stay up on my legs, no matter what I do. The long skirt means I don't have to think about sockery. As Midas seem to have ceased trading, I spend more time using denim skirts from denimskirts.com who have a good variety of well made skirts, even buttoning up "the right way" for a man.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Big and Bashful »

Oops! shouldn't have gone looking, I have just bought one of these:

http://www.denimskirts.com/collections/ ... e-tap-0487

Long black skirt, not really feminine looking, decent pockets and belt loops.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Jim2 »

I'm actually kind of tired of black. And looking at what they have to offer, I think I might prefer this one more:
http://www.denimskirts.com/collections/ ... -plus-size
However, I'm either a size 32 or 34, and this item is not available in those sizes. Thanks for the site.
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Re: No Trousers at the Polynesian Cultural Center

Post by Big and Bashful »

Jim, Their range changes often, I am a 44" waist and many of their skirts don't go that large, but there are enough which do. 40" long is ankle length on me, I am 6 foot 3 inches tall. That one at 42" inches long would be a floor dragger, looks good though.
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