The Dambusters strategy

[Sinned]

There is an increasingly vocal opinion that a good proportion of business that currently resides in Scotland will move their head offices south partly in response to an EU directive that head offices should be in the country where most of their customers reside and partly in the uncertainty of what the conditions would be in the aftermath of a yes vote. In terms of where these head offices would be might not affect employment because it would be possible for Standard Life, say, to have its head office in London but the majority of its processing in Edinburgh so headlines could be misleading. But EU and economic rules may also force them to move processing as well, who knows? For me it will be sad to see Scotland go but then it's their country and they can take whatever risks they want to.

[Kirbstone]

I can't lay my hands on it just now, but I saw a 'Londoner's Map of the UK', which unsurprisingly marked permafrost just North of Watford on the M1, but which had two little rabbit's ears up top, one marked 'Yorkshire', the other marked 'Scotland'.

You can feel safe, Dennis' that the Yorkshire one will remain, but the other may well go. There'll probably be a ragged amputation scar somewhere in the region of Hadrian's Wall !

Tom.

[crfriend]

Generally speaking, where there is union there can also be disunion. Much depends on the local customs and economic clout of the members.

The USA went through a period of disunion in the 1860s when one local culture clashed with another which resulted in the secession of the southern tier of states from the United States. In retrospect, it probably would have been better to let the southern states go and tolerate, or embrace, the CSA as a trading partner. It certainly would have solved some of the problems we're reaping today.

Then there's the matter of when Ireland decided to give independence a go, which came at a higher price in blood than Scotland may face. (For the uninitiated, the "Union Flag" of the UK is a composite of three flags -- those of Saint George (for England), Saint Patrick (Ireland), and Saint Andrew (Scotland) which represents the Union at the time it was formed, although conspicuously missing is the flag of Saint David (Wales). It's also quite possibly the world's sharpest-looking flag.)

If Scotland -- which has its own local culture and economy -- believes it's getting a raw deal from the Union, I think it's ultimately up to the citizens of Scotland to make the call. In the USA, I'd like to either forcibly eject the southern tier of states from the Union, or have the New England states secede, but that's an animal of different stripes altogether.

[skirtyscot]

Sinned, have been reading the Daily Express? A business can put its head office wherever it likes - that comes from the principle of Freedom of Establishment, the same thing that says that you can go and live and work in any EU country you choose.

[Sinned]

I read a variety of newspapers as I get them free more or less daily ( after the patrons have read them ) from a local RAF base - Express, Mail, Mirror, Sun and Telegraph. Incidentally I am reminded of an exchange in Yes, Prime Minister between Prime Minister Jim Hacker, Sir Humphrey Appleby and Bernard Woolley about newspaper readerships:

Hacker: "Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers: The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country, The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country, The Times is read by people who actually do run the country, The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country, The Financial Times is read by people who own the country, The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country, and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is."
Sir Humphrey Appleby: "Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?"
Bernard Woolley: "Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits."

[Grok]

One possibility is to strip down the old central government-devolution of domestic affairs. The central government might still be useful for dealing with the external world, such as diplomacy, trade, and defense.

[Sinned]

My Uncle lived in North London and when I was little we would go and visit him so I am well conversed with the convention of the North starting just north of Watford. Don't know if it's still there but coming up the A1 just south of Doncaster there was a sign that said "The North". Don't go down the A1 much any more so not certain if it's still there.

[skirtingtoday]

One possibility is to strip down the old central government-devolution of domestic affairs. The central government might still be useful for dealing with the external world, such as diplomacy, trade, and defense.

Grok, There was (and still is) a possibility being discussed called "Devo-Max" where in the event of a "No" vote that a swathe of further powers would be transferred to the Scottish parliament. This includes completely independent tax raising powers for instance.

The only things not devolved to Scotland would be (as a minumum) Foreign affairs, Defence and the Royal family to which Scotland would still contribute to the UK coffers. A possibility of a second question (instead of just a straight Yes/No vote) to include this option was dismissed by Westminster.

For a time this was anticipated as the most likely result after an anticipated "No" result but recent polls seem to have swung more towards the "Yes" camp though the "No's" are still ahead.

And Dennis, the "The North" signs are still alive and well on the M1 and M6 ! I can't recall seeing any "The South" or "The West" signs anywhere though but perhaps they do exist as well.

Ross

[Milfmog]

And Dennis, the "The North" signs are still alive and well on the M1 and M6 ! I can't recall seeing any "The South" or "The West" signs anywhere though but perhaps they do exist as well.

Some years ago, I came across a very depressing road sign as I was driving home from Gills Bay after leaving the Orkneys ferry. I don't recall exactly where the sign was but, three hours after I started driving, it read "Inverness, The South".

The North / South divide has two sides (just like most subjects).

Have fun,


Ian.

[Grok]

I've started to wonder if Devo-Max might be a good idea for the USA.

[skirtingtoday]

Thanks Ian. So "The South" does exist after all !

To give you an insight into relative distances around the UK, have you seen this sock puppet video? It is based on the tilting of the BBC weather map to make England look huge and Scotland rather small. I understand that the weather map used is as it would viewed be from central France so points further away look progressively smaller. I would have thought that vertically downwards would give a better indication of the land mass that is the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egHXCF9Knn4

It is similar as the map of the world as it SHOULD be drawn showing the true actual size of Africa for instance, which is not as the standard view we all know. (If I find it again, I will add it to this post)

EDIT - Found the pic (the size is the same as the USA, China, India, Japan, eastern Europe AND half a dozen countries in Europe and more besides!

Africa true size.jpg

[skirtingtoday]

And the world map should look like this with the equator at the centre-line - which may illustrate things better

Peters-Projection-World-Map.jpeg

[Kirbstone]

I had a nephew get married in Sydney in January and down there they had an interesting array of World maps, a few examples I submit. The 'tube' one got a bit blurred, sorry.

Tom

[skirtyscot]

Your "flat-earthers" map is very like one my father had. He was an amateur radio enthusiast, an he erected a huge aerial on a tall mast in the back garden, much to the displeasure of the neighbours. To help him point it in the right direction, he had a map like that, a Great Circle Map or an Azimuthal Equidistant Map to give it its Sunday name. The distinguishing feature of such a map is that it shows the true bearing from the centre of the map to any point on the globe. Nearing the outer edge of the map, a circle drawn would represent an ever-smaller circle on Earth, and the circumference of the map represents a single point which is precisely antipodean to the centre pont. So in the map pictured, Antarctica encircles the map and the South Pole lies all around the egde. My father's map was centred on London, and on it New Zealand stretched about a third of the way round the circle, near edge in the north and east. The idea of New Zealand being north-east of the UK was very strange!

[skirtingtoday]

Sometimes a map is not all it appears to be:-

When I was working in Libya (in 1984), the local Arab TV station at one point showed a map of Europe which at first looked odd. The oddity was that where England and Wales should have been, there was nothing but water shown! Scotland and Ireland still existed on the map though. When we met locals and said we were Scottish,

Another time i saw that England and wales had been reinstated but the colour was shown in black. This we were told was to show the locals graphically which countries were not on an "approved" list. All very sad and a bit petty really but when the state controls everything you see and hear, all you will see and hear are selected and approved before distribution.

Much the same as Hitler's Germany before and during WWII.

And sadly, I think that the BBC has now become little more than a voicepiece for propaganda and has very little true investigative journalism it was always renowned for. Channel 4 news in the UK is now superior and much more balanced in news coverage.