Hope Alexander: How Men Can Wear Women's Clothing, But ....

[jamie001]

Why don't we just stop worrying about looking masculine or feminine and just allow ourselves the freedom to wear what we want to wear? If women want to wear an item of male fashion, they just incorporate it. Men should do the same.

[jeanfor]

Why don't we just stop worrying about looking masculine or feminine and just allow ourselves the freedom to wear what we want to wear? If women want to wear an item of male fashion, they just incorporate it. Men should do the same.

I agree 100% but I think we are not there yet..... I mean by that I want to be able to attract as many men as possible by giving a masculine appearance and by conveying to the majority of men that they can wear a skirt, and be manly men. It is a big step for most of the men. We have been brain washed since our birth that boy should wear pants and shorts and we have to relearn from the beginning.

[SkirtedViking]

The masculinity in appearance is a term that is exploited in order to limit men's personal expression and give advantage to the other sex for which femininity is not OBLIGATORY.Pro-feminists do not jump at me-that is my opinion and as far as I am concerned it is totally true.Be masculinists, defend male rights,not female ones.If a woman in order to feel equal had to wear masculine apparel, vote,work masculine jobs and so on I can defend also the same for guys - that is equality.

[Pythos]

Viking, I find myself agreeing with you.

I am so tired of hearing men that want the freedom to wear skirts, saying that only certain skirts should be worn to maintain a "masculine image"

If "masculine" was the desired look, then in business all the upper level people would not be clean shaven, cause that is one of the only inherently "maxculine" features our male bodies have. I am not saying it is the only one, but it definitely is the most visible. Yet our culture considers a sharped dressed man to be clean shaven.

Long hair is also very natural, there is nothing natural about short hair. If there was it would fall out after growing a certain amount.

[jeanfor]

Viking, I find myself agreeing with you.

I am so tired of hearing men that want the freedom to wear skirts, saying that only certain skirts should be worn to maintain a "masculine image"

If "masculine" was the desired look, then in business all the upper level people would not be clean shaven, cause that is one of the only inherently "maxculine" features our male bodies have. I am not saying it is the only one, but it definitely is the most visible. Yet our culture considers a sharped dressed man to be clean shaven.

Long hair is also very natural, there is nothing natural about short hair. If there was it would fall out after growing a certain amount.

I am just more favorable to a baby step approach rather than a radical or extreme one.

[Pythos]

The problem with the baby steps approach is that that is all that gets done.

Have you not noticed this?

I have. The skirts for men movement is at exactly the same, if not more repressed than it was 10 years ago. That is I think mainly due to this "baby steps" approach.

You would never have ridden your bike properly if your parents had not decided it was time to lose the training wheels.

Unfortunately many of us work in professions that are ultra conservative. They are fully open to womanizing, and poluting, but wearing anything that is feminine, is an automatic basis for the person's competency.

[crfriend]

The masculinity in appearance is a term that is exploited in order to limit men's personal expression and give advantage to the other sex for which femininity is not OBLIGATORY.

This argument falls down when one recalls that until remarkably recently is was obligatory for women to appear "feminine". Not only that, but in many settings (e.g. extremely "conservative" and, I'll add, sexist settings) it still is.

Put bluntly, it is not women who are stifling the notion of the expansion of clothing choices for men, it's the men themselves! True enough, if some bloke cuts a deal with his wife that he won't wear skirts, that's between him and her; yes, it smacks of control, but the ultimate arbiter is individual choice. Intelligent forward-thinking women who care about the men they're involved with typically have few problems with the guys in their lives who take up skirts as a style choice; even if initially they do, it usually fades with time and the understanding the the man they fell in love with is still the same man, but with a larger wardrobe. In short, grow some stones -- "man up" if you will -- because that's what "being masculine" is. If you want to "play the victim" feel free to, but be aware that others will see you as doing so.

I am so tired of hearing men that want the freedom to wear skirts, saying that only certain skirts should be worn to maintain a "masculine image"

Note that for years now I've used the term "believable" when it comes to a look that one wants to present. The notion is subtle, but the gist is that whatever you put on must look perfectly natural on you, fit your personality, and not "jar" the onlooker. This can be a fine line to walk, and that line will vary with each and every individual, but it can be done. The trick is to make the onlooker see you, not what you're wearing. This takes finesse, and it takes a strong undertanding of your own personal style; it's also not necessarily for the faint-of-heart because there may well be detractors out there.

I wear skirts routinely to work now, and have done presentations whilst so attired. Nobody seems to notice because they're paying attention to what I'm saying, not what I'm wearing. If they were paying attention to what I was wearing when I started, they will have missed something come the end.

I am just more favorable to a baby step approach rather than a radical or extreme one.

This is a completely understandable -- and wise -- approach if one does not know his audience, or if one is less than absolutely confident in his approach. It's also a great way to get acclimated to the expansions in style that skirts will bring to one's wardrobe. It's worth bearing in mind that "newcomers" to skirting will make gaffes from time to time because there's no depth of experience in the wearing of such garments; skills need to be learnt, confidence needs to be gained, and familiarity must be achieved. Once those have been attained, however, the sky's the limit within your own personal aesthetic.

If "masculine" was the desired look, then in business all the upper level people would not be clean shaven, cause that is one of the only inherently "maxculine" features our male bodies have.

It's worth noting here that "business" is not about self-expression, it's about raw power and nothing else. It's also still dominated by many old-school military ideals. This is one of the reasons I've espoused keeping one's skirting reserved for off-hours; it simply does not dovetail well into the corporate or military mindset.

The initial benefit I saw in showing up at work in a skirt was (aside from coolness on very hot days) was the absolute statement that, "Yes, I wear skirts. So what."; this makes me immune to things like threats of blackmail. I also have waist-length hair and a full beard; those cannot be taken off and put back on again, so those have always been part of the equation in my professional life.

[jeanfor]

When I talked about baby step approach is regarding making other men interested in wearing skirts. I have never been worried about what people think about me. I like a certain style for myself but every man is free to decide for himself. It is more about making the style attractive to other men and do better than we have done in the last 20 years. I wished I had been introduced to skirts long ago. But somebody had to open my eyes. We are also going against something that is deep rooted in our brains. In addition the US has that deep rooted puritanism.... In that context, what is the best way to make men change?

[crfriend]

When I talked about baby step approach is regarding making other men interested in wearing skirts. I have never been worried about what people think about me.

Whether you think so or not, what others think of you -- and your style choices -- is important. If you gather accolades for your style sense, then it'll be a big "win" for everybody involved; if, however, one garners ridicule then the opposite will be true. The "magic bullet" in getting skirted garments accepted on guys will be the chaps that make it look so natural that there can be no resistance to the notion.

I like a certain style for myself but every man is free to decide for himself. It is more about making the style attractive to other men and do better than we have done in the last 20 years.

I feel that broadening that scope to include all observers -- both men and women -- would be more beneficial in the long haul. Why court one camp only? Why not court both at the same time?

In addition the US has that deep rooted puritanism.... In that context, what is the best way to make men change?

At first blush that might seem to be the case, but I suspect that it doesn't hold water all across the large land that makes up the USA.

I live in New England -- a place that is both forward-looking and surprisingly Puritanical at the same time. In my experience, folks are perfectly willing to accept you if you "look like yourself", "behave as yourself", and make no excuses for who you are. As I mentioned earlier, this can be a knife's edge to walk, but it can be done -- and, if done well, it's likely that nobody will even notice you're wearing something other than trousers.

[AMM]

.... In that context, what is the best way to make men change?

What's with this "we gotta change the menz" attitude that keeps cropping up here at the Cafe?

All my life, people have been trying to "change" me into what they think I ought to be. By now, what I really want is for people to let me be. And that goes for skirt-wearing, too: I don't want men-in-skirts or men-in-trousers evangelists coming up to me and trying to tell me to wear something different. Even if it's "for my own good."

So why should I be running around trying to "change" other people, at least if they're not hurting anybody? (And, in my dialect of English, "people" includes "men".)

-- Oscar, who is looking for some especially yucky stuff to paint his garbage can with.

[jeanfor]

.... In that context, what is the best way to make men change?

What's with this "we gotta change the menz" attitude that keeps cropping up here at the Cafe....
So why should I be running around trying to "change" other people, at least if they're not hurting anybody? (And, in my dialect of English, "people" includes "men".)

-- Oscar, who is looking for some especially yucky stuff to paint his garbage can with.

I will have to disagree with you here. We are not trying to force men to wear this form or that form of garment but instead we want to change the perception that men and at large men and women have toward men wearing skirts. The same as for women wearing pants. Most do not question the fact that women wear pants now. Should be the same for mean wearing skirts. It is all about choices....

[crfriend]

[...] We are not trying to force men to wear this form or that form of garment but instead we want to change the perception that men and at large men and women have toward men wearing skirts.

At risk of sounding pedantic, it's usually best to avoid the use of "we" (unless you're a monarch) when ascribing opinions. The moderation staff here, or at least the more bombastic types, have been known to use it, but it's usually not advised.

One of the things that I find enjoyable and, at times, compelling, is the differences that we (as members of the community) have in our personal styles. None of these are "right" and none of these are "wrong"; they are what they are, and have their bases in who each and every one of us are. Trying to compel a complex lot like the community here would likely make herding cats look like a trivial exercise. All of us, I believe, are pursuing our own ends and sense of style; since there are currently no "rules" on the matter of men wearing skirts, I view this as a "Good Thing". Yes, some of us will lay eggs as we pursue our own aesthetic, but others among us are likely to belt home-runs at the same time (I've done both; the latter is great, and the former is, well, embarrassing).

Oscar, who is looking for some especially yucky stuff to paint his garbage can with.

When you find something disgusting enough, please do pass along the formula. I may be needing it. Many thanks in advance.

[Pythos]

We are not amused (channeling Queen Victoria)

[jeanfor]

One of the things that I find enjoyable and, at times, compelling, is the differences that we (as members of the community) have in our personal styles. None of these are "right" and none of these are "wrong"; they are what they are, and have their bases in who each and every one of us are. Trying to compel a complex lot like the community here would likely make herding cats look like a trivial exercise. All of us, I believe, are pursuing our own ends and sense of style; since there are currently no "rules" on the matter of men wearing skirts, I view this as a "Good Thing".

Differences make for a great community....

[Since1982]

Oscar, who is looking for some especially yucky stuff to paint his garbage can with.

I found a better thing to put on a garbage can to put certain people off when I was 12 years old. I was raised a fisherman's son who learned just about everything to do with fish and fish related subjects. You've all probably seen a movie or on TV the fish that rides free stuck upside down on sharks and whales in the Ocean. It's called variously a "shark sucker" a "sucker fish" or the correct name, a "Remora". The pad on it's head with sucker slots to stick to large sea animals with is VERY good at staying stuck, even after the Remora has died. Back when I was young, there were NO plastic garbage cans, only metal ones. A Remora kept wet and cold in a fishbox to the house could be stuck to the outside of a car or truck OR garbage can and allowed to dry in the sun, and could not be removed without cutting it off, hopefully, without scratching the metal surfaces too badly. IF it wasn't noticed stuck on your vehicle for several days....it was very noticable up to 100 yards away without seeing it.
Yep, Oscar really needed a Remora ..... and so do we, from time to time!