Out and About -- In the World at Large

[crfriend]

Speaking as self-appointed Commissioner of Attire Police, text correction division, I need to point out the interpretation here of the word 'Isle'.

But it passed the spell chequer! And auto-correct, two! Therefore it must be write, no matter what the literati have to say about it. These sorts of things sleigh me. (I hate auto-"correct" -- it's more like auto-corrupt.)

Btw. I think we should legislate against leggings. I HATE 'em!

I could get on board with that sort of thing, but I suspect ridicule and humour are more powerful than politicians' pens -- and certainly safer for all involved.

"Yes, dear, that rig makes your butt look huge."

[Sinned]

[ Rant on ]

Tom, I have to 'old my red pen when I see the spelling errors even on this sight. The most common revolve the there/their type but the aberrant apostrophe as in its/it's comes up quite often. I cum from a grammar school background in which we were tort the rules of English grammar and had regular spelling competitions. There is often inadequate use of the comma, the semi-colon and other constructs. I did think about picking up some boobs on grammar from a cheepie buckstaw but then thort it was a waist of mony 'cos what grammar rools I needed clarification over I cood luck up on the internot. And don't get me started on autocorrect tools, the one this site uses doesn't work adequately, if at all.

[ Rant off ]

So I don't bother - I accept you and your communications, imperfections and all. BTW I can commit faux pas as well so I am not perfect by any means.

Dennis

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Dennis, I come from that old school too that says that grammar, proper use of punctuation marks and good spelling isn't just indulging a prissy obsession; it's the route to clear and efficient communication.

To get back to the germane topic, I always wear shirts with my skirts, either polos or contemporary dress shirts, depending on the skirt and the occasion.

This Sunday was Pentecost so red was the color of the day and boy did people let me know I had nailed with my shirt, which I had gotten in the Men's Dept. of Ross Dress for Less. I have one Liz Claiborne shirt I got in the Women's Dept. of Penney's when I needed a purple shirt and didn't feel the lavender dress I'd had for a few years was dark enough to register.

The fact is there are some great colors getting into the Men's Department. Not only can they look great with skirts but pairing them up that way emphasizes my point that I'm not trying to neuter ourselves, I just want to expand my sartorial options.

That said I'm thinking of raiding Goodwill in a big way for some basic blouses to go with my skirted suits and recently I saw in the "What I wear to work" column of Bloomberg Businessweek a picture of a fellow in a women's shirt that he had bought and wears to work because he liked the pattern. The biggest tip-off for me was that the buttons were on the women's side.

So clothing is getting more androgynous.

[Sinned]

Pdx, apart from occasionally grepping around the sites for articles advocating skirts for men on the recent catwalks I do NOT subscribe to what fashion critics are advocating as the latest looks. I go by my own sense of style and the look I wish to project. Look what a mess the fashion police have made of the scene and MOH is still suffering from it. Ditch the BusinessWeek advice and set your own style. I have always ploughed my own furrow so to speak. Your looks are fine for you - don't try and copy anyone else. Courage, my man, courage.

P.S. my advice is worth as much as it costs.

[renesm1]

Pdx, apart from occasionally grepping around the sites for articles advocating skirts for men on the recent catwalks I do NOT subscribe to what fashion critics are advocating as the latest looks. I go by my own sense of style and the look I wish to project. Look what a mess the fashion police have made of the scene and MOH is still suffering from it. Ditch the BusinessWeek advice and set your own style. I have always ploughed my own furrow so to speak. Your looks are fine for you - don't try and copy anyone else. Courage, my man, courage.

P.S. my advice is worth as much as it costs.

I think your advice is good on the whole. We all have to find our style.

[moonshadow]

Pdx, apart from occasionally grepping around the sites for articles advocating skirts for men on the recent catwalks I do NOT subscribe to what fashion critics are advocating as the latest looks. I go by my own sense of style and the look I wish to project.

I agree with this, but I think that Pdx is creating his own style. Like many of us I'm sure he explores different looks from different places to see what works and what doesn't. The fact that he spotted a man in a "women's" shirt in a business magazine I would say is VERY encouraging to the over all scope of our cause here on this site. It may be a shirt and not a skirt, but it's still a step in the right direction.

* * *

Regarding grammar:

While I always appreciate constructive criticism regarding my use of grammar on this site, I do believe we ought not to get aristocratic about it. This is, after all an informal site of online friends sharing a common theme, that being skirts. It's not an grammar forum. I'm not writing a novel here, nor am I filling out a resume, so perfect grammar is not a requirement. Even if I were writing a novel, professional writers have editors to help catch grammar mistakes.

I make every effort to write as pleasantly as possible, often keeping a separate tab open on my browser to google check phrases and words before I use them. But at the end of the day, I am a man of somewhat humble beginnings, less than perfect schooling, by my own fault, I admit. (I didn't pay attention in class) But really, I simply am what I am. For better or worse.

I can and do always strive for improvement, but perfect? I'll never be.

Also, it seems to me that language, like virtually every other aspect of human culture, including what we wear, when you really get right down to it, is completely arbitrary by design. The fact that there is such a sharp difference in British English and American English is an excellent testimonial to how language evolves over time, and across geographical areas. And Language does evolve, for evidence of such, look no further than a King James Bible.

And besides, it nut lik i sitin hre ritein lik dis1 so cum on guyz chil out!

[Fred in Skirts]

AMEN MOON!!!!

Fred

[crfriend]

I'm not writing a novel here, nor am I filling out a resume, so perfect grammar is not a requirement.

That's true enough -- to a point.

While your assertion that language is completely arbitrary is entirely correct, language happens to serve as a protocol that enhances communication -- or makes communication possible in the first place. It turns out that humans tend to be remarkably adept at subconsciously "correcting" little errors so long as there aren't too many of them; this includes the occasional typographical error (I commit those fairly frequently, and the auto-corrupt feature on my browser commits more), botched punctuation, and "incorrect" words being used in place of the proper -- and intended -- ones. (Yes, Moon, I was having a playful go at you in one of my responses.)

Well-written prose flows well and is pleasing to the eye as well as the mind; composition filled with blunders gets pretty difficult to read quite quickly, and I personally find that if I can't grasp what an author is trying to say in a few sentences I give up. So, not only is language a protocol, it is also an art. English may not be the most elegant language to listen to (I'd vote for Italian on that count), but it is incredibly rich in its expressiveness and depth. it's a shame not to use it.

I typically read very quickly -- much faster than the same words can be spoken -- and unless something requires detailed thought, I may not take more than a few seconds to read a typical post here. However, when I got to:

And besides, it nut lik i sitin hre ritein lik dis1 so cum on guyz chil out!

my progress through the post came to an almost complete standstill as I tried to decipher what the writer had intended. Posts that lack proper formatting and punctuation do the same thing to me. So, in this case, poor writing can severely handicap the reader, and if the entire thrust of a missive is to convey information then a disservice has been done.

Am I saying we all need to turn into Pulitzer-quality writers? Heck no. But can we do better? I believe so.

[Fred in Skirts]

I typically read very quickly -- much faster than the same words can be spoken -- and unless something requires detailed thought, I may not take more than a few seconds to read a typical post here. However, when I got to:

And besides, it nut lik i sitin hre ritein lik dis1 so cum on guyz chil out!

my progress through the post came to an almost complete standstill as I tried to decipher what the writer had intended. Posts that lack proper formatting and punctuation do the same thing to me. So, in this case, poor writing can severely handicap the reader, and if the entire thrust of a missive is to convey information then a disservice has been done. Am I saying we all need to turn into Pulitzer-quality writers? Heck no. But can we do better? I believe so.

Now when I was reading that passage it did not slow me down at all. And I completely understood it. I guess it all comes down to what our minds are used to. I have lived in the deep South for 50 some years and have gotten so used to reading what passes for English in some areas that it no longer slows down the reading process.

Fred

[Sinned]

Like Carl I speed read and well written prose can be scannd quickly and typical typographical errors can be absorbed without any reduction in speed. I realise that perfection is not our aim on this site which is why I don't nitpick - this isn't what we are about. So Moon, and others, as long as the sentences seem to flow ok then that's fine. But text-speak and your last sentence, Moon grates on me as it slows me down and I have to think about what is meant. So I do agree with Carl but make allowances for human imperfection. Tom was trying to use humour so let's bear that in mind and accept his post in that vein. You know English has so many similar sounding words that it is easy to use alternatives with a completely different meaning. I nearly finished the last but one sentence as ".... accept his post in that vain." Completely different meaning, no?

I appreciate that Pdx is finding his own style, which is completely different from mine, but I was just trying to warn him of the dangers of relying too much on the fashion police and, even worse, the police commentators and critics. It has been mentioned somewhere on this site about cravats, something I used to wear in my late teens and early twenties, and it's something I would like to pick up again, whether or not some commentator or other says that they are now in fashion or not.

[dillon]

I'm an American; far be it for me to critique anyone's English.

[Kirbstone]

I'm Irish and perversely the most valuable 'gift' the British left us is their language.

If we Irish had to learn English as a second language it would be an uphill struggle for us indeed.

Tom

[moonshadow]

Well-written prose flows well and is pleasing to the eye as well as the mind; composition filled with blunders gets pretty difficult to read quite quickly, and I personally find that if I can't grasp what an author is trying to say in a few sentences I give up.

That's true, but ahh, when we speed read well written text, I fear sometimes we may miss the point entirely. Sometimes written word needs to be digested one bite at a time. Often times, complex subjects are difficult to put into words, often times there are hidden meanings that must be studied. Making a text difficult to read forces the reader (if he's so inclined) to slow down, and re-read the statement a few times, perhaps even consulting various references for the passage to make sense. Even on this site, I have seen (as Uncle Al pointed out) various people read bits and pieces of my post, only to skim over the meat of the remark, and then get the wrong idea entirely.

Going back to the bible analogy, it is the difference between reading the bible, and studying the bible. Sometimes I wonder if that's why many Christian pastors prefer to read and study out of the King James Version, because it requires the modern reader to slow down, and absorb what has been written. Another example is to compare it to food, the written word is like food in many ways, food for the mind. ...

Like a meal, you can speed eat and practically swallow the dish whole, but then you're not taking the time to enjoy the meal, to taste all of the flavors, allow it to roll around in your mouth and savor every bite. You may never notice that the meal had certain spices or textures if you gulp it down in a few bites. In addition... you may choke!

Much of what I say online shouldn't be read too quickly, as often times my comments have a certain esoteric spice to them that may not be clearly observable to the casual reader.

So, not only is language a protocol, it is also an art.

It is an art, and different people have different dialects, languages, definitions for different words, etc. It can be a very beautiful art. It paints a picture. To write something out in a way as to mutilate the rules of conventional grammar, I can paint a picture in the mind. Using the example in my last post, to say " it nut lik i sitin hre ritein lik dis1 so cum on guyz chil out!" made a point that simply saying "it's not like I'm sitting here writing like this! So come on guys chill out!" would have missed. The picture wouldn't have been painted in your mind. Another example is a lovely song I heard on Pandora today, regarding a man strumming his guitar in a pawn shop who finally took it home. The lyrics of the song were in that old country twang, that if spelled out on paper would be an English teachers nightmare! But to use proper grammar in the lyrics would have made the song without feeling, and lacking any soul. Different dialects, accents, etc are a part of local cultural charm. To say "ya'll comon'in yer suppa's gittin' cold!" Paints a better mental picture than "you all come inside, your dinner is getting cold". Hell, even LOLspeak has it's funny charms.

So yes, language is an art, but having everybody conform to set rules is contrary to the nature of human art. Imagine if every artist were expected to paint the same way, with the same colors, using the same tools, and following rigorous guidelines. We'd loose a big part of our humanity, and our soul.

I paint my language picture as an old country boy living in the southern quadrant of the nation. I've got some hillbilly words about me, but I also enjoy spicing it up with some longer complex words. My vocabulary, like my collection of skirts is very eclectic, and very unique to my personal style. However, and if I may be frank, you've got to give me some credit, I think I speak much better than many people of my generation considering my educational background, that being a C average, high school graduate who has been turning wrenches most of his adult life.

Tom was trying to use humour so let's bear that in mind and accept his post in that vein.

I know. Fella's, you all outta know by now I generally don't get bent out of shape about stuff on the old 'net. If I do, I just shut the computer down and walk away. The fact that I posted back indicates that I am not offended... just clearing up my position on a matter. I think the world of Tom, and everyone here, we are all a credit to this site, to men in skirts, and many of you would shirley make your English teachers proud!

This whole online grammar thing has been a nail sticking out I've been wanting to pound down for a while now.

Then again (as I proof read this), I realize... sometimes I just use the wrong damned word!

Aaaannnnnyyyywaaayyy...... Anyone been out and about in the world at large lately in any skirts?

[skirted_in_SF]

That said I'm thinking of raiding Goodwill in a big way for some basic blouses to go with my skirted suits and recently I saw in the "What I wear to work" column of Bloomberg Businessweek a picture of a fellow in a women's shirt that he had bought and wears to work because he liked the pattern. The biggest tip-off for me was that the buttons were on the women's side.

I saw that and frankly didn't notice which side the buttons are on. Also, I just shrugged my shoulders at the fact that it was a woman's shirt, that's pretty much all I wear any more. They just fit me better. More interesting colors/patterns are just a bonus.

[moonshadow]

Also, I just shrugged my shoulders at the fact that it was a woman's shirt, that's pretty much all I wear any more. They just fit me better. More interesting colors/patterns are just a bonus.

I agree. I've been wearing "women's" shirts since late winter and I love their comfort and style.