Too Feminine - is there a tipping point ?

[SkirtedViking]

As I have said many times, if there is a freestyler's section on the board - the word too feminine is out of the context.Fashion freedom is about wearing whatever you like, no matter feminine,masculine,neutral and so on. Women have that freedom while narrow-minded/macho man with insecurity whether they are "real" men enough do not.By the way - I do not want to nor I can pass for a woman - gotta a nice beard and not only that so if anyone is implying that descriminatory word "cross- checking" or whatever that term was - do not listen to that, people are jealous when someone have more guts than they do.

[Kris]

I've been told in here in the past that all my ideas about who's a crossdresser, who's a transvestite, who's a drag queen and who's a transsexual are wrong and I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe that's true, it still doesn't change the fact that when I was 16, was able to drive my first car over to Fort Lauderdale public beach I met a lot of "dressed" men who told me that crossdressers were men who part time role played at being womanly. Transvestites were men who role played the woman's role full time but stayed physical men with no plans of surgical changes. Drag Queens were gay men who role played a far overdone female persona with gobs of makeup, 3 inch nails, huge wigs and skintight gowns in all kinds of garish colors. On the other hand they told me transsexuals were men or women that had the surgery to become the other sex physically. Please correct me if this is somehow wrong in these days. Remember, when I was 16 it was 1957.

Well, Skip, since you asked...
Yes, 1957 was quite a while ago.
There are things I thought I knew as a 16 year old that turned out with the passage of time to be wrong, misunderstandings on my part, or changed with the times.
We had this discussion once before, and as I recall you were quite unhappy that i disagreed with you.
So I won't get into it again.

Kris

[flamencofreak]

Being Scottish I'm well used to wearing a kilt but really like the idea of wearing a skirt. I guess my initial assumptions was to find really masculine styles/materials e.g. denim or something that wouldn't be too noticable; possibly this or this.

I do appreciate that we all have different views on style but this post got me thinking how the new acquisition would 'work' for want of a better word. I'm not criticising skirtingtherealissue's choice but part of me thought 'good on you' and the other half thought 'oh no !' as that this would prevoke a very negative reaction if I wore it out.

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

davemcwish

I really like both of those skirts pictured, and I do think that a man could easily wear them. In the first photo, especially, the lady is dressed in "man styled" shirt and vest. Just substitute the real male article, and you've got it. I think it's a great look for the office.

[flamencofreak]

As I have said many times, if there is a freestyler's section on the board - the word too feminine is out of the context.Fashion freedom is about wearing whatever you like, no matter feminine,masculine,neutral and so on. Women have that freedom while narrow-minded/macho man with insecurity whether they are "real" men enough do not.By the way - I do not want to nor I can pass for a woman - gotta a nice beard and not only that so if anyone is implying that descriminatory word "cross- checking" or whatever that term was - do not listen to that, people are jealous when someone have more guts than they do.

While reading through this thread, the thought came to me that very many of the pants (trousers) that women wear today do not look "feminine" in the slightest, but look exactly like the mens counterpart, only tailored to fit the womans hips and waist (and sometimes, it appears, not even that). So, are these women thought to be dressing "too masculine"? It seems that "society" doesn't think so.

[davemcwish]

As the OP I probably should probably stop hiding as the thread wasn't going where I had thought.

First off I didn't intend this to cause a response that would make skirtingtherealissue remove his picture and description. I was trying to use it and example of what I was trying to ask. If an offence has been cause then it was not intentional and

With regard to my question, on reflection I think 'Feminine' was the wrong word because the phrase cross-dressing arose which it a subject for a completely different forum. After speaking to the SWMBO, her thoughts on skirts for men was that it generally come down to "Does it work ?".

This, I think, can be a combination of various factors that have been mentioned. Confidence is the main one however I don't think that's ehough; if it was I'd quite easily wear something like this:-



or




gothic's my thing .....

However unlike Second Life, we live in The Real World and regrettably there are other factors to consider such as build, age and what else the wearer has on. So although there is a choice it is somewhat restricted.

Assuming for the minute that we exclude fancy dress events and the (now sadly Americanised) All Hallow's Eve.....

In the same way that certains styles work/not work for women in my mind the same applies for men in skirts with a range from denim skirts at one end (easy to pair and stealthy) to the opposite end with say floral prints that no mantter how hard you try it would never work.

So being a newbie here I'm trying to work out what could/couldn't work; as far as the red pencil skirt goes I'm skill uncertain (maybe its the fact that it's fitted that's confusing me, or is it the belt or....).

It might be that there isn't even a tipping point and it's just a case of try and see.

davemcwish

[straightfairy]

.... told me that crossdressers were men who part time role played at being womanly. Transvestites were men who role played the woman's role full time but stayed physical men with no plans of surgical changes. Drag Queens were gay men who role played a far overdone female persona with gobs of makeup, 3 inch nails, huge wigs and skintight gowns in all kinds of garish colors. On the other hand they told me transsexuals were men or women that had the surgery to become the other sex physically.

Sounds as good a set of general definitions as any, to me. (and I'm a fair chunk younger than you )

[crfriend]

As the OP I probably should probably stop hiding as the thread wasn't going where I had thought. [...]

With regard to my question, on reflection I think 'Feminine' was the wrong word because the phrase cross-dressing arose which it a subject for a completely different forum. After speaking to the SWMBO, her thoughts on skirts for men was that it generally come down to "Does it work ?".

"Does it work" is a very powerful and useful tool to have in one's arsenal. So is a full-length mirror.

In both of the images above, and I'll admit a quiet liking of the "Goth" look (although I cannot pull it off myself), the tipping point is the handkerchief hem on the skirts in question. The chains in upper image, I think, could work quite well on a man (think wallet- or watch- chains) if shortened up a bit, but, in my opinion, the hem should be straight. As far as the lower image goes, black and grey work very well together, and is actually a direction I am contemplating.

However unlike Second Life, we live in The Real World and regrettably there are other factors to consider such as build, age and what else the wearer has on. So although there is a choice it is somewhat restricted.

That mainly depends on how one decides to project the look. As has been pointed out, I seem to have a bit of a steampunk bent to me, but I work the look of that aesthetic into my everyday clothing -- including what I wear to work -- so it doesn't look unusual on me. I'm sure I look slightly odd to the random passer-by, but I am secure enough in who I am that that really doesn't matter all that much. I think that lots of Goth looks can be integrated successfully into everyday wear fairly easily.

In the same way that certains styles work/not work for women in my mind the same applies for men in skirts with a range from denim skirts at one end (easy to pair and stealthy) to the opposite end with say floral prints that no mantter how hard you try it would never work.

Don't dismiss all florals with such velocity. True enough, the very bright ones might be interpreted as a bit "femme" -- even though they'd be right at home on a Hawaiian shirt -- but subdued ones can work quite well if one is careful with the colour-pallette.

So being a newbie here I'm trying to work out what could/couldn't work; as far as the red pencil skirt goes I'm skill uncertain (maybe its the fact that it's fitted that's confusing me, or is it the belt or....).

If that's the skirt I'm thinking of, the rouching at the sides is a distraction that one does not need. I'm getting set to go out for dinner, and I have on a fairly bright-red A-line skirt and a grey, blue, and white floral-pattern Hawaiian shirt. Sapphire says it passes muster, so I'm satisfied that I have an affirmative second opinion.

It might be that there isn't even a tipping point and it's just a case of try and see.

There probably is, but it will vary from individual to individual and locale to locale. Only experimentation and critical examination can reasonably tell what's right for you in where you are.

[Milfmog]

Going back to the original question posed in this thread...

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

I’m not sure I am clear on your question here; it means different things if you are asking it of a male skirt wearer (about himself) or of an observer who may have a very different perspective but will probably never have considered the idea of a man in a skirt before.

From my point of view (as a male wearer of skirts) the dividing line is simply down to what I feel comfortable in. As I have previously remarked, my comfort also has two aspects to it, physical comfort (how does it feel, am I too hot / cold, does it restrict my stride…) and social comfort (going to Tesco to do the weekly grocery shop I’ll wear whatever I was wearing just before I went out and not worry about it, going to a job interview or a potentially rowdy night out at the pub are very different and I am rather more selective about my choice of attire). It is my personal comfort that determines how confident I feel. This self-confidence is always discernible to others and, in my opinion, makes an enormous difference to how people perceive a skirt wearing man.

From the perspective of an observer, I think that there is no single dividing line. Some folks will react with horror to a kilt, others will ignore a guy in a mini skirt and hosiery but are completely thrown by a guy in a long floaty printed skirt. Some folks never seem to notice at all. In addition to variations between individuals, fashions change over time and with that drift of core expectations there is a drift of what "one can get away with", so any tipping point would move with the times to some degree.

The only aspect of this that you know in any detail is how you feel as a skirt wearer, so that is the only guide available to you and the dividing line is in your mind.

I guess that did not help much

Have fun,


Ian.

[Since1982]

Carl said: True enough, the very bright ones might be interpreted as a bit "femme" -- even though they'd be right at home on a Hawaiian shirt

I personally, don't see darker backgrounds with larger floral patterns(which are on men's sarongs world wide)as being anything other than just a colorful skirt. If we pick only colors for our skirts that remind us of the plain dark crap we've been wearing for generations in trousers and suits, I don't think we're really evolving much.

[skirtingtherealissue]

As the OP I probably should probably stop hiding as the thread wasn't going where I had thought.

First off I didn't intend this to cause a response that would make skirtingtherealissue remove his picture and description. I was trying to use it and example of what I was trying to ask. If an offence has been cause then it was not intentional and

Welcome back. No offence was caused by your post; you posed a very good question.

I reacted a little bad to the exchange of responses generated initially (as mentioned I had had a pretty poor "real world" day which spilled over into the Cafe), which is the reason why I edited the original post. On reflection, I don't think the responses were targetted either, so sorry to the other Cafe members.

After a bit of time I thought that the original picture needed to be put back up, first and foremost because you had referred to it and so the members of our on-line community should have an opportunity to see the item in question. I also felt that I ought better explain the circumstances I wished to wear the garment.

I now have the skirt and it looks great (IMHO).

With regard to my question, on reflection I think 'Feminine' was the wrong word because the phrase cross-dressing arose which it a subject for a completely different forum. After speaking to the SWMBO, her thoughts on skirts for men was that it generally come down to "Does it work ?".

I think that's the $64,000 question. I'd like to think we are all able to make these things work but, genetically, the odds are stacked against us - too many years of indoctrination that as males we have limited choices.

As far as "feminine" is concerned, we are all pushing into territory that the majority of western society would deem "feminine" attire. As such, I think it really comes down to your confidence in what you wear. As an example, I have just returned from shopping at Sainsbury and had a fairly typical presentation (for me): black polo shirt, 14 inch denim skirt and sports sandals. The notable difference this time was that the skirt was pink! I was comfortable; I'm sure I got some looks, but no comments or reactions.

However unlike Second Life, we live in The Real World and regrettably there are other factors to consider such as build, age and what else the wearer has on. So although there is a choice it is somewhat restricted. [...]

In the same way that certains styles work/not work for women in my mind the same applies for men in skirts with a range from denim skirts at one end (easy to pair and stealthy) to the opposite end with say floral prints that no matter how hard you try it would never work.

So true, even when restricted to conventional garments. Think about those men wearing soccer shirts, long shorts, etc.; not a good look as far as I'm concerned, but they have the right to wear what they feel comfortable in.

So being a newbie here I'm trying to work out what could/couldn't work; as far as the red pencil skirt goes I'm still uncertain (maybe its the fact that it's fitted that's confusing me, or is it the belt or....).

It might be that there isn't even a tipping point and it's just a case of try and see.

I can understand the problems here. I'm still experimenting, two years after joining the ranks of skirt wearing men.

Turning to the wider question

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

I support any man wearing any skirt, as long as it is worn with a modicum of decency (i.e. covering the parts that need to be covered). I think that if we start saying a man cannot wear a skirt because of its pattern, colour, length, fit, or style, then we are merely moving the boundaries placed upon men by the wider societies in which we live, not eradicating them. No disrespect to the Cafe members who use the term "manly man", but I don't think this fits with the ethos of the Cafe. After all, is this place not about (to paraphrase): "exploring, promoting and advocating skirts and kilts as a fashion choice for men... We do this in the context of men's fashion freedom --- an expansion of choices beyond those commonly available for men to include kilts, skirts and other garments. We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices."

I accept that some styles may not be your "cup of tea", but I think we are about finding our own levels of comfort whilst respecting each others' style. Or is it that those "conservative skirt wearers" feel that they are not standing out in a crowd as unusual (which is what they really want) because there are some more flamboyant styles being sported by other members?

I'd be grateful for an explanation of "manly men". I'm 5ft 8in, 145lbs, have little natural body hair (full head of hair and my beard grows in a natural goatee), and work in the professions and mostly in an office. Hardly a rough, tough, army type or similar. To my mind, a man is portrayed by his manners and mannerisms, not his physical presentation.

[Skirt Chaser]

So I guess my question is whether there is a dividing point for skirts that can/cannot be worn by males in public; if so what ?

I think there certainly are items that would need more care in pulling an outfit together to have it read the way you want to be seen, or at least as often as possible given that there are people who would think even the most benign denim skirt on a guy screams girly. Still I would not say anything is off limits, particularly because someone else's take on your attire in your off hours really amounts to little. Someone may think you are female on quick glance and they can be politely corrected with a smile and no harm is done.

*accidental bump* "Excuse me, ma'am."

"Sir, actually, but I am glad you think my legs look so good."

[salero]

Well, to give my answer to the OP's question, I'd have to say there is a definite tipping point.

As a conservative Christian, I don't think people (note: men and women) should wear things like mini-skirts, or really anything above the knee, as it can be distracting, and rather tempting to individuals of the opposite sex. I believe clothing like that has their place (i.e. alone with the spouse), and in that place I believe it is perfectly acceptable for a man or a woman to wear it, but outside I believe is wrong.

When outside, the only thing I'd ever be comfortable with, and the only thing I'd deem appropriate, is knee level or below. I think women should have all the freedom to wear pants, shorts, skirts, whatever, so long as it is knee level or below. Likewise, I believe men should have all the freedom to wear pants, shorts, skirts, whatever, so long as it is knee level or below.

Furthermore, I think the frilly, colorful stuff is ok, though I wouldn't wear anything like that (I stick to dark, simple skirts).

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. But that is my opinion. Should I be persuaded by the Holy Spirit otherwise, then my opinion will change. But as of now, I believe men and women should have freedom to wear what they want so long as it conforms to what has been written in the Bible.

[nicothoe]

Most of the skirts I have to date, and please bare in mind I have not bean doing this for long, are black and made of some combination of rayon, spandex, polyester and nylon. All of my purchases are from the Thrift store, where I am happy to spend a few bucks in the name of experimentation. A couple are full length, some hit at the knees, and one in particular is a little shorert with a slit on one side that almost reaches the hip. I'd never wear the last one in public, as it is not likely to leave much to the imagination. Oddly enough, the last one is extremely comfortable, and I wear it regularly around the house. I'll probably take it with me when I go camping later this month, as clothing itself is optional

I choose items that I think will look good on me and will feel comfortable in. So how short, what color, what fabric, and what pattern is irrelevant. I am currently wearing a colorful Hawaiian shirt decorated with flowers, and yet no-one would considered that "girly." That's just the nature of Hawaiian shirts. No, that's the BEAUTY of Hawaiian shirts. They can be a bright and colorful and obnoxious as all get-out, but they'll always look great. I had an old friend who would deliberately buy the most obnoxious shirts he could find, simply because you can!!! Yet, if I were to wear a skirt with flowers, how would that differ from the shirt? And yet....I don't think I am ready to wear a flowery skirt!

That fact of the matter is, our idea of what is considered "girly" is a bias we inherited from our culture, from our past. I know I have my own biases, and there is no guarantee I will ever shake them. I have lived in the US for 7 years, but I will always think of myself as English, regardless of how long I remain here. I will die and Englishman, and always refer to England as "home".* Those first few years can have a lasting effect. So just because we think someone looks too "girly" does not mean they have crossed the line. As long as they feel masculine, that's what they are. In the eyes of some people, by wearing a skirt, even if i call it a kilt, I have inevitably become too "girly" for their liking. What I think doesn't change there mind.

Paul

* In my experience, it's not unusual for expats to show more patriotism for the place they left than when they actually lived there. Expecting immigrants to completely assimilate and not remember the culture in which the they are raised, in both unfair and cruel. Oh dear, I am ranting

[Since1982]

Well, anyone who is trying to convince the world's M.U.G.'smen to wear everything dark,dull and below the knee is gonna have a hard time convincing a million hawaiians that's the way. All of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, the rest of the Pacific Rim countries, the Maoris of New Zealand, all of India and Africa. But good luck with that.

[RyeOfTheDead]

So I know that I'm way late to the party on this particular thread, but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of conversation happening in general around here these days, as some have suggested in other threads perhaps there is not a whole lot else to say in regards to the men in skirts concept. I mean I for one have been having these conversations for almost, if not more than half my life.

I'll spare posting my own thoughts on what the various terms (Crossdresser/Transvestite/Transsexual) mean to me, suffice to say that I have a much more liberal view on the term "crossdressing" than I think is the accepted opinion on this forum. The problem with all the terms is that they mean something different to everyone so there's no solid definition. Transsexual is probably the only one that people who truly partake in it agree on and is only confusing to those not "in the know" who have seen outsiders misuse it.

But to address the OP's points, I think the argument that "does it work?" is really a solid one. Everyone is going to have shifting tastes on what is or isn't too feminine and so you will never get a solid answer from that. But I think personally that there is a certain obligation that we men who wear skirts as men have to present as positive an image as we can, that our outfits should "work" as much as possible, so that people who see us do not say "well that just looks silly, men can't pull off skirts..." I think the difference has less to do with what specific items someone wears and more whether or not the guy took the time to really think about his head to toe look.

I'm a member of a group on Flickr called "Men in skirts and kilts" and it showcases a lot of different men trying out different styles, some of them I think work really well. I don't know who of these guys post on this forum, so I'm apologizing here ahead of time if I link to someone's photos and cite it as a what I consider a bad example. First though, here's one that I think really works:
This gentleman, "Kasmeno" posts a lot of pictures trying out various looks, some of them don't always work but most of them do, and you can tell he actually takes the time to work on an outfit. He posts a lot of his pictures on the "wardrobe remix" group too which is mostly girls and they often leave very favorable comments on his looks.

Now, in an effort to not be publicly flogging someone, I'm choosing for a "bad" example to show a picture that the poster chose not to show his face in:
. I can't imagine what thought process went through his head to combine pink knee socks with a skirt that flares out like a tutu, nude pantyhose and a heavy striped sweater. It certainly doesn't flatter his body or shape at all. This look, I should point out, would be just as awkward and unflattering on a woman.

Now, back to the concerns of the OP. I actually don't think, Dave, that you would have any problems pulling off either of those goth skirts you posted if you are someone who can in general pull off the goth look anyway. Either look with a pair of fishnets on the legs and complimented with a very heavy set of combat boots and a decent men's top would not seem that out of place at all amongst the goth people I know.

There is some truth that the most important pairing with any outfit is confidence, but it doesn't mean that one doesn't have to really look at what they are wearing, consider the context of where they plan to wear it, and be sure that it is a smart choice of outfit.

A great example of this is a former poster that someone mentioned in another thread that I was reading. Who else remembers the guy who wanted to wear skating dresses? He even wore one to the Million Skirted Man March in NYC a few years ago, and though I wasn't at the march, I noticed him in ever photo sticking out like a sore thumb. Was the issue that his outfit was too feminine? For me, no. I'd have been just as annoyed at a woman who chose to wear a full skating costume out in public as well. If this guy wanted to wear skating dresses to an ice skating rink I'd fully support his decision, but out in public as street clothes? please. I do a joke in my comedy act where i tell a story about a sexual encounter that I had with a young lady where I ended up wearing her old prom dress. I joke that even though I wear skirts, this is weird to me, because it would be weird to see a woman out in a prom dress too. I say "If you walked outside right now and saw a woman hanging out in her old prom dress, you can imagine there's probably a very sad story behind it."