Depressing article in UK press!

[Charlie]

If someone TOLD her she HAD to wear trousers, she'd be writing article after article about "Human Rights", "Freedom of Expression", "Right to Choose" etc etc.

That is part of the problem. Men are told, but not explicitly, that they must wear trousers. If a law was made saying that men must only ever wear trousers, some (i.e. us) would protest but the majority would meekly say 'OK' and not give it a second thought. If women were required by law to wear only skirts, the result would be as Howard describes, plus.

Charlie

[AMM]

Putting two quotes together:

If someone TOLD her she HAD to wear trousers, she'd be writing article after article about "Human Rights", "Freedom of Expression", "Right to Choose" etc etc.

Well, I can remember a time when women were TOLD they HAD to wear skirts. Girls were not allowed to wear trousers to school (that includes what we in the USA call "public schools.") They still are required to wear skirts in some private schools (catholic schools?) -- I see them on the train.

While grown women wouldn't get arrested for wearing trousers in public, women wearing trousers were widely considered to be inappropriately, if not indecently attired. Many restaurants wouldn't serve them, and they could count on getting told off if they wore trousers to church. Authority figures were unanimous that women wearing trousers were sacrificing their femininity, their children's well-being, and the future of society by doing so. Etc.

It may no longer be a political act when a woman puts on trousers, but women of my generation can remember when it was.

Personnaly I just love to see women in dresses / skirts,...

One thing I wonder, is that if women wear pants practically all the time, do they still care about their looks, do they still WANT to be sexy, themselves FEEL good?

Dressing to look sexy and feel good is fun -- if you also have the option not to. Dressing to look sexy and "feel good" is no fun if the alternative is to have acquaintances look at you funny, strangers call you ugly, and your employer to tell you to dress "appropriately." And if you can't open a magazine or turn on the radio or TV without hearing about the importance of looking "sexy" or "beautiful."

It always bugs me to hear guys talk about how they wish women would dress, because they always sound like they don't really recognize the women in question as real people, with lives, needs, and motivations of their own. (And who might be just a little sick of hearing how other people think they should dress.)

For instance, imagine how most guys would react if the roles were reversed, and a bunch of women were to post about how they wish men would dress a little nicer -- "don't these guys realize how much nicer they would look down at the auto parts store if they would just put on a nice Armani suit and tie? And lose about 50 lbs. And get some hair implants. Or my plumber -- he really ought to think of the impression he makes on me when he shows up at my door, and maybe get a nice tuxedo to wear on the job. Maybe get his tools color-coordinated with his cumerbund."

Think how so many guys here react to the idea of wearing a tie to work -- isn't it a bit of a double standard to complain about women not wanting to wear skirts when they're off work?

[DavidsSkirts]

That silly fat opinionated girl who did that story wouldn't survive 10 minutes in the environments that I live, work and play in...


Down here she would need the mental, emotional and intellectual flexibility that I doubt she possesses, to be able to change from trousers to skirts to shorts, and back again - so that she could adapt to changing environ's and conditions..


To me she just comes across as another example of the air-headed 20-and-30-somethings that work in today's media (newspapers/magazines/TV/radio..) in the larger cities all around the world - love to portray themselves as 'with it' girls, but collectively and individually, many of them simply "don't have a clue..".

[crfriend]

Dressing to look sexy and feel good is fun -- if you also have the option not to. Dressing to look sexy and "feel good" is no fun if the alternative is to have acquaintances look at you funny, strangers call you ugly, and your employer to tell you to dress "appropriately." And if you can't open a magazine or turn on the radio or TV without hearing about the importance of looking "sexy" or "beautiful."

AMM makes a solid argument here; if there's no alternative then there's no freedom -- it's, to all intents and purposes, a jail. The problem, however, is that all too often, once the physical walls and bars are removed, they still linger on in the brain and serve as reminders of what was and that, in turn, contaminates the reality of the now. It's fine to look back and reflect on the past -- mainly so we don't make the same mistakes again -- but it's unhealthy to shackle one's self to the past in destructive ways.

[H]ow most guys would react if the roles were reversed, and a bunch of women were to post about how they wish men would dress a little nicer -- "don't these guys realize how much nicer they would look down at the auto parts store if they would just put on a nice Armani suit and tie? And lose about 50 lbs. And get some hair implants. [...]

I suspect that most Real Men (TM) would be dumbstruck by the notion -- if they could even grasp it at all. Your typical bloke goes through his life in Dockers and polo shirts (all with little logos) or jeans and T-shirts (with slightly larger logos) depending on his station in life. Neither of those "styles" leave open an option for "nicer"; really, the next step up is a suit, and beyond that a tux. Things are pretty limited for guys, so it's not really too surprising that most guys don't have much of a clue when it comes to something even remotely outside their little box.

There's also the factor of cost -- good (read, "nice") clothes cost quite a bit more than everyday knock-about togs. For the Dockers-and-polo set there's no excuse -- they could "upgrade" their look a bit (to even include skirts) and not worry about getting it trashed at the job-site; the jeans-and-T-shirt crowd are usually wearing appropriate garb (essentially disposable) for the environment they're working in, and typically don't make enough money to afford really nice stuff anyway.

Or my plumber -- he really ought to think of the impression he makes on me when he shows up at my door, and maybe get a nice tuxedo to wear on the job. Maybe get his tools color-coordinated with his cumerbund."

I had to stifle a laugh when thinking about that visual. But, then again, it might help do away with "plumber butt".

[sapphire]

I have to agree with AMM. I too am of the generation when women/girls were required to wear skirts.

Flop around trousers and t-shirts are comfortable and as, Carl says, disposable, and you don't have to worry about how you sit, or even where you sit (like in garden dirt)

I'm glad to see the outspoken men in this forum continue to wear their manly or not so manly attire, wearing what is comfortable for them.

Just as you do not wish to have someone tell you how to dress, I do not want someone telling me how to dress.

[AMM]

][H]ow most guys would react if the roles were reversed, and a bunch of women were to post about how they wish men would dress a little nicer ...

I suspect that most Real Men (TM) would be dumbstruck by the notion -- if they could even grasp it at all. Your typical bloke goes through his life in Dockers and polo shirts (all with little logos) or jeans and T-shirts (with slightly larger logos) depending on his station in life. ...

I think you missed my point, which was this:

An awful lot of posts here at SkirtCafe talk about women:
1. As if they weren't there,
2. In terms that would (after a while, at least) alienate us if we were on the receiving end, and
3. Without any consciousness that these "women" they are talking about might have experiences which might explain why they do what they do.
As a result, they come off as arrogant and clueless.

In particular, there are a lot of posts that ask why women don't dress in ways that would please us menfolk. There are reasons, and women have in fact repeatedly given some in posts here (and in articles that have been referenced here), but for all the effect it has had, they might as well not have bothered.

I'm reminded of the scenes in To Kill A Mockingbird where the white folks sit in the parlor talking authoritatively about "the Negroes" without any apparent awareness that there are some of those same Negroes right there, serving them coffee and cakes and whatnot, let alone any thought that maybe those Negroes might have something to say. (Not that those Negroes would be dumb enough to tell the white folks what they really think.)

Their are women reading this website, and they might have something to say if anybody wanted to listen, though it seems to me that the pattern is for a woman to join, to post, and then post less and less as time goes on. I can't help wondering if part of the reason women seem to post less and less might be the number of posts that talk about women as if they were, say, turnips, rather than sentient beings who might actually know more about themselves than the men do.

[sapphire]

Their are women reading this website, and they might have something to say if anybody wanted to listen, though it seems to me that the pattern is for a woman to join, to post, and then post less and less as time goes on. I can't help wondering if part of the reason women seem to post less and less might be the number of posts that talk about women as if they were, say, turnips, rather than sentient beings who might actually know more about themselves than the men do.

THANK YOU!!!!!

I've posted my own experiences over and over and, well, I might as well be a turnip

There are reasons I dress the way I do, whether frumpy or glam and I've posted those several times. I've posted some pretty traumatic stuff and for the most part, the response I've gotten has been dead air.

Thanks for ignoring me

AMM, this mini tirade is not aimed at you- in fact thank you for your support and for recognizing what is going on.
The Turnip

[Uncle Al]

Sapphire,

I've personally NEVER regarded you as anything more or
LESS than an equal participant here. A Turnip? Come on!

IMHO you are much more like a fine crimson red rose.

Your beauty shows through, but 'Once-in-a-While', as with
any Rose, you let a sharp thorn burst someones 'bubble'.
But only 'Once-in-a-While', and ONLY WHEN THEY DESERVE IT!


Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

BTW-'Once-in-a-While' is a song title. Nice lyrics!

[AMM]

A Turnip? Come on!

IMHO you are much more like a fine crimson red rose.

I don't know how Sapphire feels about this, but I know how I'd feel if someone said this about me, especially in a context like this discussion:

It's true that roses are much more admired than turnips. However (to continue the analogy) both are plants, both exist for the use/enjoyment of people (not the other way around), and neither is assumed to have anything worthwhile to say.

I'd much rather be compared to Oscar than to a rose. At least Oscar gets to speak his mind.

As they say, a pedestal is a wonderful place -- for a statue.

[AMM]

One other thing about Oscar:

1. He has feelings.

2. On Sesame Street, at least, they take his feeling seriously.

I could do a lot worse than to be Oscar.

[Uncle Al]

AMM----

You missed the concept of 'the Rose' as 'tongue-in-cheek'.
Ms. Sapphire is a wonderful, respected person on this forum.
I was just carry-ing over the original statement/concept.

A Turnip would be on the bottom of the 'plant scale'.

A Rose is way up there close to the top, if not The Top!

I respect her views!
I respect her opinions!

Now, on an animal scale, a opossum would be the low end.
Most people ignore an opossum(Turnip). On the high end would be
an Eagle(Rose). Beautiful and graceful, yet they have sharp talons
to defend themselves or attack when necessary(thorns on a
Rose).

On the Muppet Scale, Oscar the Grouch is a 'One-of-a-Kind'.
He is a mess. He lives in a Garbage Can. He is a loud-mouth.
He does have a few tender moments, yet when he feels threatened,
he turns back into a major grouch and hides in the garbage can.

Kermit ( a muppet ) is inquiring, helpful and has a wider view of
life. He respects others opinions, ideas and has a kind word for
almost everyone he meets. He has the ability to reason out different
viewpoints between his 'friends', to help stop any potential 'fights'.

Here, we only get to see the 'words' typed by the person. Their
written word. A word is like a sharp sword. When used properly,
quite beautiful. When used in the wrong way, quite dangerous.

Here we can't see the 'merryment' in someones eyes as they are
typing away. Sadness too. This is where the emoticons come in.

I used emoticons to help relay the intent of humor.
Like a wink or shock or devilish humor .

This whole line saddens me because quite a bit has been
taken out of context.

Sapphire-Cheer up I never have, nor never will, take your
'words-of-wisdom' and ignore them. I can tell when your intent
is humorous, sad and serious.

I appreciate your input to this forum


Uncle Al
Duncanville, TX

[Sasquatch]

There are reasons I dress the way I do, whether frumpy or glam and I've posted those several times. I've posted some pretty traumatic stuff and for the most part, the response I've gotten has been dead air.

Thanks for ignoring me

Sapphire, if you feel we have ignored you, for that I do sincerely apologize. In a feeble effort to excuse our boorish behavior, I would remind you that you are talking to a bunch of Y chromosomes here. We don't process information very well for emotional feedback. We all empathize with the pain you have endured with radical surgery and the unmentioned but undeniable effect it must have had on your life. We just don't express that too well, verbally. For my part, let me say "I'm sorry." Sometimes, if you don't think you'll say the right thing, it's easier to let it rest in silence. Men understand that, but we do regret the fact that our silence may have hurt you. We value your company in this forum, so please don't think that by a lack of emotional expression that we ignore you. Please forgive our collective inherent communicational shortcomings.

I've posted my own experiences over and over and, well, I might as well be a turnip

BTW, I like turnips. And potatoes and carrots.

Sasq

[crfriend]

In a feeble effort to excuse our boorish behavior, I would remind you that you are talking to a bunch of Y chromosomes here. We don't process information very well for emotional feedback.

There may also be an element of "Sometimes it's better to remain quiet and be thought a fool rather than opening one's mouth and removing all doubt." I know that I fall into that category all too frequently. Heck, I'm still trying to come up with a cogent response to AMM's comments from last night....

Please forgive our collective inherent communicational shortcomings.

If nothing else, I'm beginning to learn that men and women communicate in vastly different ways -- and given the density of my skull, it's taken most of a half-century.

I think I'll shut up now...

[AMM]

I don't think that the problem is that the men here don't respect women. (On some sites, it's a different story....) I don't think that the people who write the posts I'm complaining about feel or intend the slightest disrespect.

I just think that they wrote without thinking about how they would feel if they were a woman reading these posts.

I think that most men have grown up hearing people talk around and about women in certain ways, and they repeat these patterns without thinking about them. And unless and until someone objects strongly and frequently enough, they usually never do think about it or change. Think about the white people in the parlours in To Kill a Mockingbird -- they didn't mean any disrespect to Negroes, it just never occurred to them to treat them any differently.

Unfortunately, as far as I can see, Sapphire and I have been the only ones to complain about these posts. It's hard not to get the impression that we are the only ones who are bothered by them, and to then go on to thinking that everyone else agrees with them. If there are so many guys who respect women, where were they when someone posted something along the lines of "the reason young women are all wearing pants is just because of peer pressure"? Or the responses to the posts blaming stuff on "Feminists"? (I did post an objection when someone griped about "feminazis" -- for the second time. But I was the only one.)

+ + + + +

The crazy thing is: these posts really have nothing to do with the stated purpose of SkirtCafe. Whether women choose to wear trousers or skirts does not affect whether we men can get away with wearing skirts out in public. (Laws and the like which restrict women's choice of clothing might be relevant, as the same folks who want to control what women wear are likely to want to restrict what men wear, too. As well as everything else.) And there's absolutely no "Feminist" position on men wearing skirts, even under the most misogynistic interpretations. The posts are basically just bull-session talk. (Maybe that's why neither the posters nor the -- male -- readers consider them very carefully.)

BTW, the reason I'm complaining about posts about women is that that's who the unthinking posts are about. If there were similar posts about, say, African-Americans, or Jews, or Muslims, or the Dutch, I suppose I'd be complaining about how people are writing about them (Anybody remember "the Dutch Conspiracy"?)

[AMM]

I would remind you that you are talking to a bunch of Y chromosomes here. We don't process information very well for emotional feedback.

Well, I've got a Y chromosome (it's in one of these pockets here, lemme look), and I've learned to understand this stuff, and, as lots of people who know me can tell you, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. You might get away with this excuse the first or second time, but at some point, you gotta "be a man" and face up to the challenge.

It does take time and effort; sort of like learning French.