Regarding the complete lack of awareness of fashion history in the mainstream

[robehickman]

Any comments regarding gender and men wearing skirts or other 'feminine' styles mostly serve to show just how little mainstream awareness there is of western fashion history. Men wearing skirted garments, bright colours, frilly details etc all used to be commonplace in Europe and America. There are also countless examples in other cultures today, and the histories of those cultures.

In case anyone isn't already aware, I'd highly recommend looking into male fashion history as there's a tremendous amount to learn from it. Even very rudimentary research shows up no end of examples of men wearing skirts / dresses as normal attire.

[Faldaguy]

Any comments regarding gender and men wearing skirts or other 'feminine' styles mostly serve to show just how little mainstream awareness there is of western fashion history. Men wearing skirted garments, bright colours, frilly details etc all used to be commonplace in Europe and America. There are also countless examples in other cultures today, and the histories of those cultures.

I'd highly recommend looking into male fashion history as there's a tremendous amount to learn from it. Even very rudimentary research shows up no end of examples of men wearing skirts / dresses as normal attire.

I'm not sure who you may be suggesting "look into male fashion history" as most on this site are keenly aware of that history; have bandied it back and forth numerous times over the years; and often seek to cite it to the plebs and general public who often are less informed. Fashion articles blast it out periodically (pun intended) with regularity. I certainly concur that being cognizant of historical trends, practices and changes may be useful; but the few that ever become learned about a subject rarely stand a chance against the hordes whose egos clamer to spew ignorance in lieu of knowledge. Human kind has not show a propensity for truth or wisdom when gossip and BS are so much easier to posit. Sorry, my faith in our species is fading.

[robehickman]

I'm not sure who you may be suggesting "look into male fashion history" as most on this site are keenly aware of that history; have bandied it back and forth numerous times over the years; and often seek to cite it to the plebs and general public who often are less informed. Fashion articles blast it out periodically (pun intended) with regularity. I certainly concur that being cognizant of historical trends, practices and changes may be useful; but the few that ever become learned about a subject rarely stand a chance against the hordes whose egos clamer to spew ignorance in lieu of knowledge. Human kind has not show a propensity for truth or wisdom when gossip and BS are so much easier to posit. Sorry, my faith in our species is fading.

My intended meaning was 'If you aren't aware of it, I would recommend looking into male fashion history, as there is a lot that can be learned from it'. Also, this can be used as a counter against anyone who may complain about men wearing skirted garments, as it is very easy to prove they have been doing so for thousands of years.

[Barleymower]

Robbie everyone here is aware of it.

Yes men used to wear skirts but that does not equate to men wearing women's garments (as some see them) or vise versa even then.

If you really want to investigate, you could explore the link between male/female roles in society. Why women live longer than men and how women really view men and why they might object to men wearing "their skirts".

Maybe you could explore why women are treated more leniently by the courts. Do they commit less crime?.and any crime they commit is probably due to abuse? Maybe MIS are viewed as looking to get the same freedoms as women?

How does this all relect on men and societies expections of men? Is that why skirts on men are so frowned upon? Are they frowned upon? maybe its in our heads.

[STEVIE]

Even very rudimentary research shows up no end of examples of men wearing skirts / dresses as normal attire.

Men wore skirted garments in history, they did NOT wear clothes which would have been designated as feminine.
Attempting to use history in this manner is of no benefit to the cause of MIS.
What's more, I decided that I'd rather wear skirts and dresses when I was 5 years old.
I didn't give a damn that toga was a dress or that a centurion's pteruges resembles a pleated skirt, that wasn't the point.
62 years on, and I still don't, at best it would be a lame excuse.
Steve.

[sellek]

It is interesting to note that this sort of discussion has been going on for some years, I have only just seen that between the wars there was a Men's Dress Reform Party in the UK.
https://www.joannabourke.com/post/male- ... ar-britain

I have also seen somewhere that I cannot now recall a discussion of how skirted'robed garments are far older than trousers and that the development of trousers was very much aligned with the need for horse riding. With the horse riding tribes of the Mongolian Plains being some of the first to wear something akin to trousers to facilitate horse riding.

[Mouse]

......What's more, I decided that I'd rather wear skirts and dresses when I was 5 years old.....

What I think is fascinating, is that I also wanted to wear stuff the girls could wear, when I was 6. Now I lived in a house with a radio, the Daily Telegraph news paper and books as information resources, so the man on the shortbread tin? When I asked, he was a Scotsman from this magical place called Scotland where men wore skirts.....
So 6 year old me, was disappointed that he had not been born in Scotland, since he assumed that boys like Steve had no trouble with this boy/girl clothing thing.....
The first family holiday to Scotland, I was so excited to see these men in skirts and so disappointed when we crossed the boarder and didn't see any chap in a skirt. Even when we went in a kilt shop, things didn't get any better. I remember searching through the family names, hoping there would be a Tartan for my family name.....

My long winded point is that even in a culture with the national dress including a skirt for a man, there is no wide wearing of skirts by men.

I truly think we are on our own here and any historical/culture male skirt wearing are interesting, but not cover for us to wear skirts in 2025/6.

The other point of issue is "freedom". I found out in the the Kilt shop about all the bits that you needed to get to wear a kilt correctly. just like all the bits you need to wear a suit or dinner jacket correctly to be "Smart". This word I hated, because I was supposed to be it, every Sunday growing up. The word I had in my brain was "Uncomfortable".

So freedom to dress as I please is what you see in "Mouse at Play" pictures. Freedom to dress as we please I think is what we should be working towards, not a limited range of man skirts.

In my own life I have created a "Mouse at work" style which I am very happy with for "work'. I make money and run my business in a skirt and I am very happy doing it.

My mother was always worried that people would see me dressed in a skirt and I would loose respect, plus it may get to affect my work, which was why she didn't like me wearing skirts, but she loved me and was looking out for me..... Of course this whole argument fell away when I pointed out that I work in a skirt. So life goes on and I dress with reasonable skirts on visits. Nothing is said to me. However a rearguard action was sent through Mrs Mouse from my sister in law about how up set mother was etc. So now I have Mrs Mouse upset since she and my mother are very close. The upshot is that I now visit in work wear and in a similar way, the same is now true for my son and partner. So my choice and freedom has been successfully eroded to a box of clothes that I created "for my work".

In a similar way, I fear that if you ever get a "Man skirt" established, it will be in a similar box. If we just keep things simple and request freedom to wear what we want, no boxes will be created.

That said, I have no problem learning from the work Robert is doing, to make my look and style better, as long as my freedom to dress as I please is not curtailed in any way. In fact I quite like the interplay with members suggesting different jackets, or colour of tights that would improve my outfits.

[robehickman]

Even very rudimentary research shows up no end of examples of men wearing skirts / dresses as normal attire.

Men wore skirted garments in history, they did NOT wear clothes which would have been designated as feminine.

Yes, and this generally looks odd because the body shapes are different, and garments aren't particularly harmonious with the shape of the body. I don't see anything changing unless there is a cultural shift towards designing skirt-type garments that are harmonious with male bodies, as used to be the case.

[Barleymower]

It is interesting to note that this sort of discussion has been going on for some years, I have only just seen that between the wars there was a Men's Dress Reform Party in the UK.
https://www.joannabourke.com/post/male- ... ar-britain

An interesting article Sellek. Thanks for sharing.
"Men’s dress expressed imprisonment; women’s expressed emancipation".
That statement still holds true.
The MDRP is another attempt (if somewhat misguided) to reverse the trend of male dress imprisonment. There have been others and all failed. There is a push going on right now and we are part of it. It's slow and appears hopeless but I believe the will is there among enough men to make it happen. I probably won't live to see it truly take hold so I'll dress like its 2125 in the mean time.

[Grok]

There is a push going on right now and we are part of it. It's slow and appears hopeless but I believe the will is there among enough men to make it happen. I probably won't live to see it truly take hold so I'll dress like its 2125 in the mean time.

Yes, 2125 would be around the time a sartorial revolution would be completed. (Assuming that the present push doesn't stall/fail).

[Grok]

Yes, and this generally looks odd because the body shapes are different, and garments aren't particularly harmonious with the shape of the body. I don't see anything changing unless there is a cultural shift towards designing skirt-type garments that are harmonious with male bodies, as used to be the case.

I suspect that if any designs gain traction during the next few decades, they will (even if unintentionally) conform to the criteria you have discussed.

It will seem as if a "man skirt" has been added to the Man Coffin...I mean Man Box...but not a much wider latitude beyond that.

[Faldaguy]

I have also seen somewhere that I cannot now recall a discussion of how skirted'robed garments are far older than trousers and that the development of trousers was very much aligned with the need for horse riding. With the horse riding tribes of the Mongolian Plains being some of the first to wear something akin to trousers to facilitate horse riding.

Not only "far older" but vastly -- for 10's of thousand of years garments were mostly wraps; but the point about trousers and horses can be a fun one -- when you ask people from whence & why pants came about-- they can never answer, and you get the kick of telling them, "to make better killers" which is accurate. The knights of Europe and Nomadic warriors in Asia (Scythians, Huns, Mongols) improved their kill rate vastly by adapting pants -- such a lovely legacy to give pants, eh? Earlier examples exist but it was still mostly robes until wide-scale adaptation by the military for their horsemen warriors that pants were more widely adopted -- perhaps from the 16th century gradually until the 19th. in the west before they became predominant in more cultures.

So, unless you need to be a better killer....

[familyman34]

Robbie everyone here is aware of it.

Yes men used to wear skirts but that does not equate to men wearing women's garments (as some see them) or vise versa even then.

If you really want to investigate, you could explore the link between male/female roles in society. Why women live longer than men and how women really view men and why they might object to men wearing "their skirts".

Maybe you could explore why women are treated more leniently by the courts. Do they commit less crime?.and any crime they commit is probably due to abuse? Maybe MIS are viewed as looking to get the same freedoms as women?

How does this all relect on men and societies expections of men? Is that why skirts on men are so frowned upon? Are they frowned upon? maybe its in our heads.

Back almost exactly two years ago I started a post here (post_id=255022 time=1703529658 user_id=36500) commenting on a 15-page long Mumsnet discussion about Mark Bryan from October 2020.

While recovering from a heavy Christmas meal, I was browsing various online sites when I came upon an interesting old (oct 2020) Mumsnet forum about Mark Bryan, 15 pages in all. I can't find any previous references to this on SC.

What struck me was that, once one discounted the negative comments about his choices in shoes, how many of the remaining comments were actually positive, probably more than 50% (and Mumsnet is usually such a nasty site!). I would like to have copied several of the comments, but there were too many in the end; I think that even Carl would be sympathetic with quite a few of the opinions!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... der?page=1

As you can see, this stimulated 6 pages of comments here on Skirtcafe.

In March 2023 another even longer thread (16 pages) on much the same topic was initiated on Mumsnet https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being ... -like-this and I find it interesting to see how the views of the Mumsnet community changed over that 30-month interval between the two threads, and actually what the balance of opinions was in this more recent one:
without going into any sophisticated analysis, I was agreeably pleased to see that about half of the comments were still generally positive, and that the viscerally negative ones were in a very small minority, while many were just about his shoes! The positive comments closely match the aims of Skirtcafe (freedom to dress how one wishes), e.g. "I am fine with it. People should wear what they want. Personally, to me these aren't really women's clothes in that I never have worn heels or short skirts. I wear pant suits to work or dress pants and a top. So I don't have a fixed view of men vs women's clothes. Wear clothes that fit and that you like and life goes on", but there were strong opinions against men trying to pass themselves off as women and enter women-only spaces.

If you’ve got some spare time to read it all, it’s quite enlightening. I haven’t found an even more recent thread on Mumsnet, but it would be interesting to see how things may (or may not) have changed since January 2025!

[STEVIE]

Yes, and this generally looks odd because the body shapes are different, and garments aren't particularly harmonious with the shape of the body. I don't see anything changing unless there is a cultural shift towards designing skirt-type garments that are harmonious with male bodies, as used to be the case.

RH,
You are missing one point which is that we can only rely on the artistry of the time so we don't really know how flattering to the male form they really were.
Not only that, the level of bespoke tailoring involved in anything other than the most basic garment renders the cost prohibitive in the mainstream markets.
The medieval serf and his lord were dressed very differently, that we know, which one really had the best "look", we actually cannot.
Steve.

[Barleymower]

While recovering from a heavy Christmas meal, I was browsing various online sites when I came upon an interesting old (oct 2020) Mumsnet forum about Mark Bryan, 15 pages in all. I can't find any previous references to this on SC.

What struck me was that, once one discounted the negative comments about his choices in shoes, how many of the remaining comments were actually positive, probably more than 50% (and Mumsnet is usually such a nasty site!). I would like to have copied several of the comments, but there were too many in the end; I think that even Carl would be sympathetic with quite a few of the opinions!

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... der?page=1

As you can see, this stimulated 6 pages of comments here on Skirtcafe.

In March 2023 another even longer thread (16 pages) on much the same topic was initiated on Mumsnet https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being ... -like-this and I find it interesting to see how the views of the Mumsnet community changed over that 30-month interval between the two threads, and actually what the balance of opinions was in this more recent one:
without going into any sophisticated analysis, I was agreeably pleased to see that about half of the comments were still generally positive, and that the viscerally negative ones were in a very small minority, while many were just about his shoes! The positive comments closely match the aims of Skirtcafe (freedom to dress how one wishes), e.g. "I am fine with it. People should wear what they want. Personally, to me these aren't really women's clothes in that I never have worn heels or short skirts. I wear pant suits to work or dress pants and a top. So I don't have a fixed view of men vs women's clothes. Wear clothes that fit and that you like and life goes on", but there were strong opinions against men trying to pass themselves off as women and enter women-only spaces.

If you’ve got some spare time to read it all, it’s quite enlightening. I haven’t found an even more recent thread on Mumsnet, but it would be interesting to see how things may (or may not) have changed since January 2025!

Family man here is another:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... rts?page=1

Here's one I post on myself.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rig ... hes?page=1

It all got a bit hectic and unpleasant at times. Many women are in favour like you say and a minority are aggressively against.

I want everyone in my family onside, outside of my family, I am not overly concerned. Neither should I because most people dont care. If they do; its only clothes, get a grip.