American men: Are you allowed to wear a skirt at work?

[Grok]

Not precisely at this moment, but that time is closing in very, very quickly. Pretty soon the mere act of shoving both legs down one pipe will be construed at proof. We -- as men in skirts need to discriminate ourselves from those who use the skirt as a signifier of being on the SD Spectrum. Else the cause is lost for another 50 or 75 years.

Some times I wonder if MIS will have to go through a long period of halfway house rigs to gain much traction. Supposing such became accepted as mens wear, I can imagine things becoming stuck at this stage for a life time.

[crfriend]

Some times I wonder if MIS will have to go through a long period of halfway house rigs to gain much traction. Supposing such became accepted as mens wear, I can imagine things becoming stuck at this stage for a life time.

No, the time for radical action is now. If, in your terms, we're "allowed" "masculine" colours and fabrics we might get access to denim (spit!) and such things in drab colours, but what of more luxurious fabrics (e.g. velvets or satins) and brilliant colours? That's the primary reason I rail against such reasoning, because we'll get stuck precisely there -- in the "halfway house" -- and never reach equality. Let's not work against ourselves by pushing in such a wimpy manner. Go for the gusto! (Or, more graciously put, "Equality or bust.")

[jamie001]

I completely 100 percent agree with CR on this topic. wE should not allow ourself to be relegated to drab colors and materials. If have also seen this on nail polish forums for men that black, brown, blue, and gray are acceptable while any other colors are too feminine. We ned to put a stop to this crap! MEn are human and have various color preferences. We don’t need to be told what colors and fabrics that we can like!

[EricD14]

Has anyone worn a skirt to a job interview in place of a suit or regular mens clothes? I don't work in a position that has a 9-5 desk job, so wearing everyday isn't going to happen. I'm just wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are going in with alternative clothing. I'm also thinking if I get an interview for a job I'm not really interested in, I may just go with the skirt and see what happens.

[moonshadow]

The "textbook" answer is, yes, legally you are allowed to wear anything a woman can wear... for now, until Bostock vs Clayton County is overturned (and it will be). Now all this being said, of course, it is more complicated, even today (with the SCOTUS ruling in place).

Laws such as the ones above don't really do a whole lot regarding employers that are hell bent on having things their own way. You can't get fired, or not hired for any one of a number of protected reasons, however you can get fired or not hired, for no reason at all.

With any situation, it's harder to legally fire someone than it is to legally not hire someone. Thus, unless the employer is VERY "progressive" and depending on the industry, it may be inadvisable to wear a skirt to a job interview. Back home, I can't think of too many employers where I would consider it a good idea, maybe a handful of national retailers/eateries that are known for being ultra-progressive. Here in the PNW there may be more options with all the employers centered around tech. Boeing seems to be a major employer here, but I've had a few locals tell me that they have been known to hold men to "traditional standards", with one coworker who used to work there as a security guard inform me that it was against policy for men to have long hair, though I'm not sure if he actually worked for Boeing, or a subcontractor (security). Regardless, as this man is about 10 years my junior, it surprised me that in this state, known nationally for being ultra-progressive, that he should be told this, and it further goes to show that "law" really doesn't have much to do with what the situation is "on the ground". In fact, as a side note, I've seen crap happen here in Washington that if it would have happened in Tennessee, or Alabama, it would have been all over the news, but up here, they get a pass for some reason.

Which brings me to my situation:
Though my profession requires a uniform and skirts would be flat our dangerous to wear on the job, in the past, I have occasionally worn skirts to the office (on my days off), also previous coworkers generally knew that wearing skirts was something I did.

I can say, looking back that the practice does seem to change people in your orbit. I found myself not being included in unofficial after-hours gatherings, and occasionally would become aware of critical banter and gossip pertaining to my choice in dress. It should be noted that the people that would "screw with me" were across the political spectrum, with the one that hurt the most being a straight up Liberal. (that's a story that few know and I won't share openly).

When I came to Seattle, I resolved to keep this aspect of my life separate from my work life. It's been over a year now and to my knowledge, nobody at the local office knows about this, though I do realize it is only a matter of time before I'm spotted. There have been some close calls already.

Now I'm in this very uncomfortable situation where I have people who seem to be clamoring to be "my friend" and include me in their lives, however there is a problem, pretty much all of them have a rhetoric that is VERY opposed to people who do not conform to social norms. Each one frequently complaining about "the weirdos in Seattle", trans people, men in skirts, you name it. Oddly enough it doesn't seem to be a political thing. Few even talk about "politics", so I can't really say where they are on that spectrum, but I can only say it seems like seeing me in a skirt would be a problem. The notion just really seems to grate on them for some reason.

Right now, I'm "the transplant from the Tennessee office", with a bit of a hillbilly vibe and a "southern way" of doing things, and they think that's cool. On the day it gets out that skirts is something I do, I already know what's going to happen. I'll lose a lot of respect, and I imagine they will be polite, but things will be... different. It will be cold, and they will be distant. I've seen it before and I already know where this is heading.

On the other hand, I have a manager in Louisville Kentucky that often (to this very day) is making offers for me to transfer to his office, the latest offer came with a carrot of a possible leadership role. This gentleman in Louisville is also a conservative pastor of a Church, however we have had several lunches together, I have worn purple nailpolish in his office before, and on a day off have been in that office wearing a knee length brown skirt, and he has been a good friend to me.

Odd isn't it?.. that I should find this kind of warm embrace in an old Rust Belt City in the middle of Kentucky while here in Seattle, have basically been shoved back "in the closet" so to speak. It just goes to show, things are not always as they appear, and one size does not fit all.

My two cents anyway, that and about $14.98 will get you a latte in Burien.

[moonshadow]

Has anyone worn a skirt to a job interview in place of a suit or regular mens clothes? I don't work in a position that has a 9-5 desk job, so wearing everyday isn't going to happen. I'm just wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are going in with alternative clothing. I'm also thinking if I get an interview for a job I'm not really interested in, I may just go with the skirt and see what happens.

More to your question,

My advice is, if you are desperate for a job (i.e. you are about to be evicted, forced out on the street, starving to death, etc), then I would dress in what is traditional for the role you're trying to fill. Get your foot in the door, prove yourself a wise investment for the employer, get through your 90 days, and then slowly inch towards your goal of being open regarding what you wear. Feel out the situation, and keep it on the DL for a while.

But..

If you're not desperate, have plenty of money stashed away, and just want something to keep you busy, by all means, do what you want.

[kingfish]

I was.
There were some safety restrictions due to the soldering operations that went with reworking prototypes. But otherwise, the standards were evenly held across both sexes.
And I hope my next job also does.

[Faldaguy]

Has anyone worn a skirt to a job interview in place of a suit or regular mens clothes? I don't work in a position that has a 9-5 desk job, so wearing everyday isn't going to happen. I'm just wondering what the advantages/disadvantages are going in with alternative clothing. I'm also thinking if I get an interview for a job I'm not really interested in, I may just go with the skirt and see what happens.

More to your question,

My advice is, if you are desperate for a job (i.e. you are about to be evicted, forced out on the street, starving to death, etc), then I would dress in what is traditional for the role you're trying to fill. Get your foot in the door, prove yourself a wise investment for the employer, get through your 90 days, and then slowly inch towards your goal of being open regarding what you wear. Feel out the situation, and keep it on the DL for a while.

But..

If you're not desperate, have plenty of money stashed away, and just want something to keep you busy, by all means, do what you want.

Moon, pragmatically I concur with your conclusion about wearing pants if you are desperate; though I wonder if it is a short term solution and one fraught with a latent backlash -- kind of what you are expressing now -- what happens when your current employer/collogues discover your penchant for a wider range of attire?

There is an inherent kind of dishonestly in that approach, and most of us are sensitive to being found/called out on such things. I suppose, when discovered you could claim you were simply abiding by their apparent preferences while at work, but I suspect they will actually have more doubts about your integrity coming upon the surprise of finding you 'secretly' gadding about in a skirt than if you had been open about it from the onset. You, Mouse, Carl, Steve and a few others here have had the good fortune to be "in demand" and/or more or less self-employed with skills that are needed regardless if they come adorned in coveralls or skirts. Others of us are retired or independent enough we can risk flaunting our peculiarities without concern for our pocketbook, though our date-book may wither a bit.

I have watched your move from the 'hillbilly south' (your words) to the PNW with it's progressive image with sociological interest and personal concern as it seems your own confidence has slipped -- 'back in the closet' you say; yet mostly we choose the the closet out of fear, and for MIS, that is mostly unfounded. In this re-emerging era of extremism in the US, sadly there are very real fears for immigrants, trans folk, and more, but the fear we MIS may have is still mostly in our own heads. The PNW, like most of the country, is not black or white, but a full spectrum of social/political colors. You are correct, in noting the strong language and lack of acceptance for the catch-all term 'weirdos' in the Seattle region. I think it is the advent of in-your-face homelessness and other mal-adapted folks in the city streets that are a relatively new phenomenon. For a time in the 80's I took on an advisor role for a Lobby in DC that called for frequent trips from our home base in western OR to DC -- and I was shocked at seeing all of the people sleeping in storefronts with cardboard mattresses. This was NOT common in Portland or Seattle at that time, and it is a recent change/shock to the psyches of long time PNW residents; so their current rhetoric reflects that shock. In short, I truly do not think you'd find much difference in response from folks in the deep south and the west coast; and what you did find, would be favorable, if you were to fully express yourself in clothing and commentary in your new 'homeland'!

I'm not about to step into telling someone what to wear to an interview, or guess at the consequences of those choices; but I will as an old headhunter, tell you that integrity is a valued commodity and it is displayed in many ways. And I think the comments here on SC will attest to the value of being true to oneself.

[moonshadow]

There is an inherent kind of dishonestly in that approach, and most of us are sensitive to being found/called out on such things. I suppose, when discovered you could claim you were simply abiding by their apparent preferences while at work, but I suspect they will actually have more doubts about your integrity coming upon the surprise of finding you 'secretly' gadding about in a skirt than if you had been open about it from the onset.

I mistakenly used the phrase "in the closet" when I shouldn't have. My apologies. The fact is I am not "hiding" this. I still wear what I want when I'm off from work as I've done so for the last ten years. Eventually I will be "outed", it's just a matter of time. And when that day comes, I intend to stand on my own and do as I've always done in the past, treat it as though it isn't a big deal (and it isn't).

Though I realize I gave a mixed signal on my last post (that was my error), let me recall the most important line in the post:

"When I came to Seattle, I resolved to keep this aspect of my life separate from my work life."

The key word here is "separate" not "secret". It is not a secret, though I will admit I dread when this thing does finally happen to reveal itself. Thus I don't view this as an act of dishonesty, as I have not told a lie or led people to believe I am something I am not. It is not my responsibility to reveal every aspect of my life to my coworkers. In reality, the clothes I wear when I'm off duty shouldn't be any more important than what I had for dinner, or what grocery store I prefer to shop at.

My experience in American culture is that it's perfectly acceptable to have a line drawn between professional and personal interest. In fact, certain subjects such as politics and religion are frowned upon, if not flat out forbidden in the work place. Who I vote for, or how I worship is also none of my coworker's business, and to flaunt it openly at the workplace could be considered out of bounds. Such as it is with the clothes I wear.

I have watched your move from the 'hillbilly south' (your words) to the PNW with it's progressive image with sociological interest and personal concern as it seems your own confidence has slipped -- 'back in the closet' you say; yet mostly we choose the the closet out of fear, and for MIS, that is mostly unfounded. In this re-emerging era of extremism in the US, sadly there are very real fears for immigrants, trans folk, and more, but the fear we MIS may have is still mostly in our own heads. The PNW, like most of the country, is not black or white, but a full spectrum of social/political colors.

That's fair. However I'd like to point out that I went through a bit of an unpleasant ordeal right before I moved to Seattle, and my choice in style was... once again... fleshed out as the low hanging fruit that was used to hurt me. It was a matter where my chosen style, how I view my own sense of "inner gender" (gender of the soul), and a close friend who happened to be a colleague intersected and I got cut pretty deep as a result of it. I have grown tired of being defined as "the guy that wears skirts". There's more to me than that.

I can not imagine why my employer would take issue with me wanting to keep this aspect of my life separate, especially considering the HARD push-back against anyone who doesn't conform to traditional social norms. Considering how triggered people (and customers) can get about this type of thing, you'd think they [the employer] would appreciate an employee who doesn't flaunt this kind of thing.

To put it quite simply, what I do when not at work is simply not my employer's business, provided it doesn't conflict with our mutual interest.

As for those coworkers that are jonesing to be my friends, with all due respect, after what my wife and I went through in the last half of 2023, we are in no hurry to make friends right now. Maybe someday, but not today. Frankly we came out here to be left alone. We have simply had enough of every Tom, Dick, and Harry kicking us in the teeth every time we turn around. When we heard about "the Seattle Freeze", we smiled, as that is exactly what we were looking for.

[moonshadow]

A follow up thought,

I do want to mention however that there are other aspects of me that are pretty much out in the open, lest we forget, I have, what is considered in the United States, a "girls name", I wear ruby red, 60's style, feminine cat-eye glasses every day (even at work). So there are some clues and nobody should be particularly surprised.

[Grok]

City-data.com has a few threads about the "Seattle Freeze." People in the Seattle area are deemed to be particularly stand-off-ish and cold towards strangers.

[Faldaguy]

A follow up thought,

I do want to mention however that there are other aspects of me that are pretty much out in the open, lest we forget, I have, what is considered in the United States, a "girls name", I wear ruby red, 60's style, feminine cat-eye glasses every day (even at work). So there are some clues and nobody should be particularly surprised.

You are absolutely correct in that there is no obligation to share everything; and some things are best left alone even if not forbidden by HR and the now defunct DEA offices. And though it was your post I responded to, the brunt of my reply was truly meant to be generic, you simply provided the opportunity to express the thoughts. Undoubtedly most employers are delighted when their employees are as bland as a UPS truck, " except for when customers are proclaiming so and so did a 'great job".

My use of 'dishonest' was not to imply that you or anyone who is choosing to not share/disclose something is in any way actively dishonest; but if we allow ourselves to be silenced for something as benign as wearing a skirt, certainly not an illegal act, only because we are afraid of what others may think; if we are 'hiding' from fear of being "found out" then we are damaging ourselves. My concern is that all too often some MIS (often newbies) convey a "fear, or lack of confidence response"-- an aura, a subtle "yea, I'm doing something weird" and that gives the great unwashed public an opening to attack us rather than to merely accept or even endorse our climbing out of the conformity rut.

You personally have been on this road far too long in vastly more challenging spots than most of us, so I'm talking to the choir here, and hoping a few more guys pick up the vibe of being confident in their choices --regardless of any self-imposed restrictions. I cannot picture you cowering from being spotted in whatever garb you've chosen; you have travelled the highways and paths of many thickets already; but undoubtedly some will be surprised when they discover that the guy in the next office/van sometimes wears @#$%^&*()! -- my god, a skirt! Then you & I and our small contingent of fellow travelers have the opportunity/task of educating them who have not caught up with us!

I hope the pain, and grace, that led to the name & location changes are diminishing so that you may soon enjoy some of the 'unfrozen' parts of the PNW -- there are quite a few! We are contemplating another family visit to the Willamette Valley in Mar/April -- I'd be delighted if an opportunity to catch you or the handful of other MIS there arose.

[moonshadow]

City-data.com has a few threads about the "Seattle Freeze." People in the Seattle area are deemed to be particularly stand-off-ish and cold towards strangers.

Meh... Seattle is far from the most icy city I've visited. To that honor goes the Miami Florida metro area (actually the whole state is pretty dry in my opinion)

In fact, I rather enjoy my time spent in Seattle, I find that the inhabitants there do indeed have a "city" vibe that I can see where some people might think it's snobby, but really it just seems like a "normal city atmosphere" to me. In fact, I find Seattle quite friendly as far as big cities go.

And yes.. I do get to "peer behind the curtain" and actually work with the locals. I've worked in several of the high rise buildings, tourist traps, restaurants, etc and I find the managers and other service workers to be very personable and easy to deal with.

Some of the nastiest customer's I've dealt with were in my hometown of Roanoke Virginia, though in fairness, I was still pretty wet behind the ears in those days and I probably screwed up more equipment than I fixed, which I suppose could have led to the unpleasantness I had to endure.

Indeed, if you spend enough time in this city, chances are you'll eat at a restaurant or hotel where I've had my hand in their equipment at some time or another. I've probably rebuilt a hundred mixers, and serviced just as many dishwashers and fryers in the last year alone.

[moonshadow]

I hope the pain, and grace, that led to the name & location changes are diminishing so that you may soon enjoy some of the 'unfrozen' parts of the PNW -- there are quite a few! We are contemplating another family visit to the Willamette Valley in Mar/April -- I'd be delighted if an opportunity to catch you or the handful of other MIS there arose.

They are. Our first year here was somewhat "hot and cold". Even this site chronicles my "back and forth" regarding the area, though I think a lot of the angst had to do with out living situation, stuck in a tiny camper in a cramped RV part that was basically an overly crowded parking lot.

Our duplex feels like home (even if it can get a little noisy from time to time), and it feels safe. It feels good to have our sentimental things out of boxes again, it feels good to have both of our vehicles at the ready (as opposed to storing one off site). The rent is high, but I make more money here, so we manage. We're nowhere near the knife's edge financially. The more time I spend here, the more I feel myself rooting to the area. We are well at home in the Marysville, Smokey Point, Arlington, Mt.Vernon, and Stanwood area.

I've also completely fallen in love with the peninsula, and the area around Aberdeen. If I go anywhere else, I'd likely just try to gravitate in that direction.

The peninsula here in Washington is like what West Virginia was like for me back east, a place of majestic beauty, sparsely populated, where things go a little slower, and southern Washington more resembles the atmosphere of Appalachia (with a little ocean culture thrown in). When the hustle and bustle of the I5 corridor starts grating on me, I head to the ocean for a day and it helps reset my spirit.

Good stuff.