Men have "more individualism" but dress up to conform more?

[LiuBang]

We've heard time and time again how men are more individiualistic while women tend to be more collectivist.

But if men really had "greater male variability" in terms of personality, then why do women dress up as they feel like while men dress up to conform? Is anyone really going to rebut this by saying "fashion has more to do with susceptibility to mass advertising than it does with personality, and that women are more collectivist, and therefore more susceptible to fads, and therefore more susceptible to advertising and fashion?"

It's ridiculous how much harder it is to tell individual men apart from individual women. Literally every tall-ish, non-overweight, short brown-haired, brown-eyed, bearded, non-bespectacled white guy looks like every other tall-ish, non-overweight, short brown-haired, brown-eyed, bearded, non-bespectacled white guy. They wear the same blue business suit and the same tan leather shoes. I was at a regional government meeting where I swore I recognized a city councilman, until I actually said hello to the guy, and his name was completely different from the councilman's.

With women I very rarely have this problem. For all the talk of "white girl uniform of leggings + uggs" it pales in comparison to "white bro uniform of blue suit, beard, and tan leather shoes." Outside of actual corporate/school uniforms, I have yet to see two women wearing the same dress. EVER. Dresses are literally semi-bespoke garments (they kind of have to be).

[STEVIE]

We've heard time and time again how men are more individiualistic while women tend to be more collectivist.

Another example of the human condition and a paradox, Liu Bang.
Personally, I do believe that most people are steeped in. and influenced by, the collective, we tend to be social animals at heart.
The gender differences show more in certain levels of sub-groups.
Woman to woman, they will generally support and encourage each other toward individual non-conformist behaviours.
Male groups, gangs or packs, demand uniformity in members, non compliance equals ostracism to some degree.
I was out and about today and saw several groups about to start off their Saturday festivities.
The exclusively male ones could have just as easily have been composed of clones, the women an absolute contrast in variation and even creativity.
Steve.

[crfriend]

At issue here is that men in modern society are supposed to be "useful" and nothing more. They're not supposed to be rugged individualists, daring explorers, or even innovative. We exist to serve our families and significant others. We're essentially farm animals and beasts of burden. The moment we start to show any signs of individualism, we threaten the notion of "usefulness" and servility -- and are very quickly, sometimes brutally, "put in our place" again. It's an overt threat to what tries to pass for "modern society" -- and men are just as guilty of policing as are the women. We should know better.

So much for "being the captain of one's own ship". Men, at least where I try to live, have largely been relegated to wallets, sperm-donors, and, increasingly, prisoners. Who in their right mind would want to be so treated?

[jamie001]

CR,

Your post hit the nail on the head!! Even I could not have summarized the situation of men better. Is it possible for you to pin the post? Everyone here should read it, especially new members when they come to the Cafe.

[just_me]

Absolutely - somehow this brings an other quote to my mind referring to women as "human being" contrary to men as "humen doing".

[TheSkirtedMan]

We've heard time and time again how men are more individiualistic while women tend to be more collectivist.

Another example of the human condition and a paradox, Liu Bang.
Personally, I do believe that most people are steeped in. and influenced by, the collective, we tend to be social animals at heart.
The gender differences show more in certain levels of sub-groups.
Woman to woman, they will generally support and encourage each other toward individual non-conformist behaviours.
Male groups, gangs or packs, demand uniformity in members, non compliance equals ostracism to some degree.
I was out and about today and saw several groups about to start off their Saturday festivities.
The exclusively male ones could have just as easily have been composed of clones, the women an absolute contrast in variation and even creativity.
Steve.

Agree with post and reply from Stevie. For me, women support each other, even if unknown. Men on the whole compete and on the whole do not form a supportive network. Society still holds men to an expectation but latterly not so for women. I also feel most men are very fragile with their security within society, many will disagree, especially as women can dress and do all aspects that men do. Men I feel are very concerned not to loose prime position and status of masculinity especially as most women now ouse masculinity not femininity. Feminity was endorsed as secondary so on the whole most women will avoid femininity and nearly all men cling to masculinity and the appearance, behaviour, colour schemes etc that enshrine masculinity. Except sunny hot days where women put on skirts and dresses I find women and men on the whole very similar in appearance and therefore a man that deviates from expectation and becomes an individual stands out. A woman bring an individual is seen as empowering herself. A man as an individual is questioned.

For me, I'm just me. An individual that is keen to be an individual of expression and choice and not follow a society expectation. Yes at times that can make life hard for me but it's rare. Time only allows a small aspect of society life and I find on the whole life is positive.

With regards women being able to dress up as they feel like, men dress to conform, personally I am not impressed with the majority of women's choice of appearance. I'm not questioning trousers, male styles etc just the utter mess of appearance quite often I feel no thought process. Just my perception, others no doubt think that of me!

[STEVIE]

With regards women being able to dress up as they feel like, men dress to conform, personally I am not impressed with the majority of women's choice of appearance. I'm not questioning trousers, male styles etc just the utter mess of appearance quite often I feel no thought process.

There was a processed thought, "I will damned well please myself for a change", is a possibility anyway.
Some of the worst examples of totally inappropriate styles which I have seen have made this abundantly clear.
Steve

[rode_kater]

For me, women support each other, even if unknown. Men on the whole compete and on the whole do not form a supportive network.

Interestingly, I have heard from multiple women that women-only groups can become terrible places, with backstabbing, subtle put-downs, grudges and just plain old nastiness.

The other comparison I heard is that if two guys are competing for a job, and then one of them gets it they'll still go together to the pub to drink a beer. But two women in the same position can get quite nasty.

Now of course, generalisations are bad, but I don't think it's as simple as you say. Men will absolutely support each other in many things, just not (apparently) clothing choices.

[JohnH]

I guess I'm fortunate to be in a unique niche. My church choir is short of lower octave singers (one of the tenors is a woman).
Most men are baritones and tenors. So a true bass voice, that I have, is not common. So I'm the only singer in the choir who can reach ledger line notes below the bass staff.
That niche, and my below shoulder hair and bust enable me to get away with presenting like a woman.

John

[TheSkirtedMan]

For me, women support each other, even if unknown. Men on the whole compete and on the whole do not form a supportive network.

Interestingly, I have heard from multiple women that women-only groups can become terrible places, with backstabbing, subtle put-downs, grudges and just plain old nastiness.

The other comparison I heard is that if two guys are competing for a job, and then one of them gets it they'll still go together to the pub to drink a beer. But two women in the same position can get quite nasty.

Now of course, generalisations are bad, but I don't think it's as simple as you say. Men will absolutely support each other in many things, just not (apparently) clothing choices.

I'm not saying all men do not network because some do and yes some women groups can be nasty, back stabbing etc but from my life experience what I said is my generalised perception. A female dominated environment can be just as bad as a male dominated environment but not always. Although I say for my skirt wearing the small minority who look, stare, gesticulate are 99% women however, in my life experience I have more interaction and conversation with women, than men. Men judge on sport, politics, job, etc, if close friends then banter. For me, women talk generally with me, not all because some have this social stigma about men. But my wife where ever we go encounters far more conversation and finds out far more than I in social chit chat. Women are on the whole far more sociable, generally, than men and it is not just regarding clothing with men. Not going to loose any sleep on this, as I have far more social friends who are women than I do men. So I base my statement on my life experiences.

[greenboots]

On the subject of female liberty vs male conformity: I heard a bit of Woman’s Hour today on the topic of “boy mums”. One listener said that she had no problem with encourage her firstborn, a girl, to express herself and do as she pleased, including traditional boy activities, but could not do the reverse for her second child, a son. Hence she reinforced the stereotype we often discuss in the cafe.

[crfriend]

[...] but could not do the reverse for her second child, a son. Hence she reinforced the stereotype we often discuss in the cafe.

And thus the cycle remains unbroken.

[Barleymower]

[...] but could not do the reverse for her second child, a son. Hence she reinforced the stereotype we often discuss in the cafe.

And thus the cycle remains unbroken.

Noone wants to blame women, I don't want blame women but unless they do something, nothing is going to change and that goes for fathers too.

It has to happen in the home, within families.

BTW men are not predators, men are not looking to preserve male only spaces.

[crfriend]

Noone wants to blame women, I don't want blame women but unless they do something, nothing is going to change and that goes for fathers too.

I''m not blaming solely women in this case, but this one brought part of the problem into high relief. There's enough "blame" to go 'round here, but this is one spot that really does prove the saying that, "Those who rock the cradle rule the world."

[Barleymower]

Noone wants to blame women, I don't want blame women but unless they do something, nothing is going to change and that goes for fathers too.

I''m not blaming solely women in this case, but this one brought part of the problem into high relief. There's enough "blame" to go 'round here, but this is one spot that really does prove the saying that, "Those who rock the cradle rule the world."

There's a lot going on here Carl. Anyone who's been in a long term relationship knows that women don't jump everytime a man says so, if ever. But, if mum says no because little Jonny likes a skirt then Dad can step in and say "come on he's just a boy, let him". She would probably say OK knowing she has the support of her husband. That is to say mum and dad need to act together and support each others decisions.
That's a very different situation to a bat cave crazy radical feminist who wouldn't give any man the time of day and would see even a small boy as a future grown man - her enemy. Can he wear a skirt? No he can't! Women were forced to wear skirts 100 years ago and now men want them, well they can't have them, they are our skirts!!!

All said with a little dose of humour