Sir Garyson Perry is "just a man who likes to wear dresses"

[crfriend]

II really do not like the work transvestite ot tranny for short. It still has a perverted sexual connotation that I believe is not good for our cause. Crossdresser is not a great term, but I accept it because the definition is accurate and it applies to me.

{sigh} How many times does this have to be explained? In all ways, shapes, and forms, transvestite == crossdresser. This includes etymology, usage, connotation, and ultimately meaning. They are the same word, save that one is expressed in Latin and the other in English. And both rightfully should be regarded as sexist terms because it is sociologically impossible to have a female crossdresser. Both are slurs when applied to men. The Latinate form was some grad-student's attempt to make "crossdresser" seem "more learned" when writing his thesis. Nothing more.

The only really positive term for us here in the Cafe is Gender Non-conforming (GNC). It does not have any negative connotations and simply means that we do not conform to gender stereotypes. gender expectations, and gendered clothing constraints. I hope that GNC becomes more widely used to describe us.

And that too will be applied only to men, and as a slur. Best to not mention the thing at all and let us be human beings rather than attempting to "diagnose" us -- especially as something we're not.

How about this? Let men be human beings? Will that work?.

[Coder]

I hope that GNC becomes more widely used to describe us.

Some here would disagree with this sentiment - some would like skirt wearing to be normalized as mens clothing, such that they are conforming to their gender in wearing one.

I'm a bit ambivalent about it myself - I'll accept that it can be used as a label to describe my clothing style, but ultimately I think we need to degender clothing to a degree that people are free to wear what they want and the GNC term loses its meaning. I swear a lot of strife and suffering at the hand of clothing Karen's (sorry to those of you named Karen - no offense meant) would go away and people would be happier if they were free to wear what they wanted*.



*This gets tricky and could lead down a dark path, and probably deserves its own thread if one hasn't already been started.

[crfriend]

I hope that GNC becomes more widely used to describe us.

Some here would disagree with this sentiment - some would like skirt wearing to be normalized as mens clothing, such that they are conforming to their gender in wearing one.

I know for sure that I disagree with it -- vehemently. I am a human being who happens to be male. I also happen to wear skirts, and I do not regard myself as any less male.

I will reiterate my stance from above: "Let men be human beings. Will that work?" Because it damned well should. We should not be "diagnosed" as something we're not.

I really don't care if "you" (in the notional sense) are a wannabe woman -- it's really none of my business. What I dislike is having that label slapped on me. We are complex creatures. You know, "humans".

[jamie001]

I will reiterate my stance from above: "Let men be human beings. Will that work?" Because it damned well should. We should not be "diagnosed" as something we're not.

I completely agree with this statement, however I believe that it is at least 25 to 50 years ahead of its time. I believe that there are several issues with Skirts being normalized for men. Please keep in mind that these issues represent only my thoughts on the matter.

1. I have said in the past that if skirts are ever accepted and produced for men, they will suffer from the same problems that men’s clothing currently suffers from. Namely, mens clothing is limited to drab and boring colors, no pinks, purples, lavender, or pastel colors. Also men’s clothing tends to be made from thicker fabric than women’s clothings sometimes resulting in it being heavier and hotter than the women’s equivalent. Essentially what the designers will do is take the skirt and attempt to fit it into the constraints of the Man-Box. As I have stated many times here, give me the same options, colors, and fabrics as a woman, but cut the skirt to fit a man’s body. To me, that is what men’s skirts should be.

2. It will take at least 25 or 50 years until men break out of the Man-Box enough to accept skirts as a male fashion. A significant amount of progress has been made by our GNC brothers by wearing skirts and other women’s items of clothing publicly. Society is beginning to understand the GNC label and what it means and has learned to disassociate it from the sexuality of the wearer. That is why I advocate for the GNC label. As more and more movie start and music artists display GNC, the more it will be accepted by society. Is it really so bad to be grouped into the same category as Harry Styles, Lil Nas, and other musical artists? We have made great progress in the past 5 years.

I am not attempting to be a contrarian in this post. I am simply pointing out that there are is steep road up a very large mountain, and also a slightly elevated road up a small hill. I know what road I will take. Many will die on the steep road going the the large mountain before they reach the top. In this case “die” means being frustrated with not being able to achieve the goal within their lifetime.

Again please note the views expressed in the aforementioned post are my views only, and anyone reading this post should not attempt to construe it as applying to all of the men on the Cafe. In fact, my views on this issue are most likely in the minority and subject to ridicule here on the Cafe.

Jamie

[crfriend]

No, this is not "future thought" in the slightest -- it's perfectly applicable in the here and now. For both of the use-cases above.

Let men be human! What's so hard about that? (Unless you're entirely consumed by rad-fem doctrine where dehumanising the opponent is critical.) And if one is so consumed, then one is likely hopeless and is doomed to being part of the problem rather than part of the solution -- and one of the basic tenets of the "man card" is that one never wants to be part of the problem.

Guys at least understand the notion of "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." The girls, not so much (although a few -- far too few -- do).

[Grok]

I completely agree with this statement, however I believe that it is at least 25 to 50 years ahead of its time. I believe that there are several issues with Skirts being normalized for men. Please keep in mind that these issues represent only my thoughts on the matter.

1. I have said in the past that if skirts are ever accepted and produced for men, they will suffer from the same problems that men’s clothing currently suffers from. Namely, mens clothing is limited to drab and boring colors, no pinks, purples, lavender, or pastel colors. Also men’s clothing tends to be made from thicker fabric than women’s clothings sometimes resulting in it being heavier and hotter than the women’s equivalent. Essentially what the designers will do is take the skirt and attempt to fit it into the constraints of the Man-Box.

2. It will take at least 25 or 50 years until men break out of the Man-Box enough to accept skirts as a male fashion.
I am not attempting to be a contrarian in this post. I am simply pointing out that there are is steep road up a very large mountain, and also a slightly elevated road up a small hill. I know what road I will take. Many will die on the steep road going the the large mountain before they reach the top. In this case “die” means being frustrated with not being able to achieve the goal within their lifetime.

Again please note the views expressed in the aforementioned post are my views only, and anyone reading this post should not attempt to construe it as applying to all of the men on the Cafe. In fact, my views on this issue are most likely in the minority and subject to ridicule here on the Cafe.

Jamie

My comments apply to the mainstream of society. As I recall, there was a thread about subcultures, which may embrace their own versions of expression.

Actually, a few members have mentioned the mountain metaphor. Unfortunately this metaphor appears to be all to apt.

Dictionary definition of a mesa-a flat topped hill with cliff like sides. Looking at the top from the bottom...that flat top is the Promised Land. Thanks to a few members with a flair for clothing (such as Jeff and SkirtsDad), we have an idea of what the Promised Land could look like.

Another definition...ledge-a shelf like projection on a wall or cliff.

Trying to scale the side of the mesa, there is a narrow ledge above us that is just barely with in reach of our finger nails. Utilitarian garments, intended for out doors activities such as running or hiking. The colors are very limited, as are the fabrics. These garments exist in a tiny niche, they seem to be just barely viable for a small business. A few of these are found in the Links section.

[Grok]

Unfortunately, it is easy to imagine progress towards MIS stalling. A few reasons:

1. Society's generally tendency towards social conservatism.

2. Lack of imagination in regards to mens wear. (Members are definitely mavericks in this regard).

3. Opposition by significant others/family.

4. Young women rejecting young men who are in unorthodox garb.

Conceivably, even if something gains traction, additional designs might not. Stagnating at a lower level of achievement for a couple centuries.

[Barleymower]

For me it is not so easy to resolve. The skirts are helping, I have quite a collection now and I can always find room for one more.

I seem to have two warring factions in my head and neither side is winning. This stalemate is not helping my mental health. I am at a loss really how to solve it, it may not be solvable.

Skirts are like a little holiday from myself but again I find the war within invades that space as well. I live and work in two highly male dominated areas and if my skirt wearing was revealed in these places, I have it in my mind the laughter would be uncontrollable.
Away from these places I don't care and walk around happily in the clothes I want to wear. People don't care and treat me normally. Only the odd old person looks disgusted and that doesn't bother me.

[Mouse]

Skirts are like a little holiday from myself but again I find the war within invades that space as well. I live and work in two highly male dominated areas and if my skirt wearing was revealed in these places, I have it in my mind the laughter would be uncontrollable.

I want to preface my comment here by saying that what ever I say, you should disregard me totally since it is your life and you have to live it.

So, I am going to ask you the same question you asked Jamie001. How bad do you want the freedom to wear skirts at work? This summer. Instead of a pair of shorts, how about a black utility kilt or even one of those with hi viz stripes on them. Yes, day one would be full of ribbing, but day 2, 3. By the end of the summer who knows what you might have got to, may be a black denim working skirt. You would have then unified yourself into one. Not be worried about being found out. And not down on a Monday because you have to go back into trousers after the weekend of skirts.


This is not advice, just a question. It is your life and if it blows up, it is still your life. But you may be happier or not.

[Mouse]

Just to add to my last post. Hi viz kilt is a thing.,,
https://www.merlindirect.co.uk/hi-vis-c ... gJ0xfD_BwE
Somebody must buy them?

[Barleymower]

So, I am going to ask you the same question you asked Jamie001. How bad do you want the freedom to wear skirts at work?

Not quite the same question.. but none the less I'll do my best to answer.

Before I answer I'll also preface by saying that I have the utmost respect for you mouse. Brave is not enough to describe your way of life. I think it is what being a man is all about. Standing up for yourself, being kind, being brave and supporting others.

The simple answer to your question is this: my last Job, Paddington Cross Rail had 400 men on it and some women. Things could have got out of hand. It's how I make a living, I didn't want to risk it.

Digging a little deeper. I think it is easier in a lot of cases when the direction is clear. For example gay men and women. They just need to be who they are and it all gets much easier. I suppose like Jamie in another world I would have been much happier. But that didn't happen, instead I have a wife and I love my wife and I love our kids, I would not change a thing.
Yet my mind wriggles and squirms looking for an escape of the male prison it is locked in. I did not need to try being gay to know it was not for me. I have never stood next to a man and thought any of those thoughts,. Women all the way for me.

I was trans for a whole weekend and my wife nearly left me. For a few days I was lost in a fantasy that had no relation to real life. Reality hit home and I thought about all the implications from destroyed male equipment, artificial hair and shortened life span. I quickly realised that I'm pretty much stuck with who I am. I didn't want that life enough. It left a lasting wound on my marriage. My wife is still supportive though. Bless her.

[Mouse]

But that didn't happen, instead I have a wife and I love my wife and I love our kids, I would not change a thing.
Yet my mind wriggles and squirms looking for an escape of the male prison it is locked in. I did not need to try being gay to know it was not for me. I have never stood next to a man and thought any of those thoughts,. Women all the way for me.

I was trans for a whole weekend and my wife nearly left me. For a few days I was lost in a fantasy that had no relation to real life. Reality hit home and I thought about all the implications from destroyed male equipment, artificial hair and shortened life span. I quickly realised that I'm pretty much stuck with who I am. I didn't want that life enough. It left a lasting wound on my marriage. My wife is still supportive though. Bless her.

I don't think we are that all that different. I also have a wife and family which I would not change for anything. I love being a dad to my two children. I also have never wanted my body chopped up. So for most of my life I had this double life which my wife knew about before we married and accommodated through the years. I was also worried about being a crossdresser in front of the children so I kept that hidden until they were older. So until I hit 50, I was in hiding. At 50 I decided to let more of me out and do things I always wanted to. So what I am saying is that we are all at different points of our life and our journey to what I term is our happy place.

You have a supportive wife and a family that accepts you in a skirt, so in my book you are already living the dream. You have come to terms with the body you have, so now the thing to do now is work on your style and how you want to appear to the would from the full range of clothes, footwear, headwear and bags. Try things out. I think part of the secret is to be a little shocking in how you appear in other things, other than just a skirt. Shadowfax once asked me if my Septum piercing came before the skirt since when he first met me, he noticed it first, not the skirt.

If I can help in anyway, meeting in London one to one, or what ever. I am not special, but I do feel free to be me now, after many years being repressed. I will do anything to help others to a similar place. I think here in the UK we have a reasonably safe space to be our true selves as men in skirts and what ever else makes us happy. You have seen me on Kings Cross station platform in full latex outfit inc skirt, 7" heels, earrings, split tongue, Septum piercing, sparkly nail polish, bush hat, all of which is the current Mouse, at full volume. The only thing I got on that platform were two people liking my boots and wanting to know how I walk in them.

Look after yourself and your family, since you already have a situation that many members envy you for. Mouse

[Barleymower]

I'm looking forward to the our next meet up. We can can have a chat then.

[STEVIE]

I'm looking forward to the our next meet up. We can can have a chat then.

On this subject, it won't be a meet-up, more like a week long convention.
If you reach a conclusion, frankly I'd be shocked, I don't believe there is one.
The nomenclature isn't as important as societal attitude and norms.
Society, currently will rarely accept that a guy just "wants" to wear a dress. Society wants/needs a deeper, convoluted or darker reason.
Hell, we seem unable to agree among ourselves, what hope for an outsider and at the same time we appear surprised when newcomers express anxiety over appearing in public.
Sheesh, stop the world, I need off, my brain hurts!
If anyone thinks I have cracked it, after 60 years, I'm as puzzled as ever.
Steve.

[Mouse]

I'm looking forward to the our next meet up. We can can have a chat then.

On this subject, it won't be a meet-up, more like a week long convention.
If you reach a conclusion, frankly I'd be shocked, I don't believe there is one.
The nomenclature isn't as important as societal attitude and norms.
Society, currently will rarely accept that a guy just "wants" to wear a dress. Society wants/needs a deeper, convoluted or darker reason.
Hell, we seem unable to agree among ourselves, what hope for an outsider and at the same time we appear surprised when newcomers express anxiety over appearing in public.
Sheesh, stop the world, I need off, my brain hurts!
If anyone thinks I have cracked it, after 60 years, I'm as puzzled as ever.
Steve.

I am also 60, and on the subject of dress, more happy than I have ever been in my entire life. I do not hide what I wear from anybody. I am quite happy to adapt my outfit to fit with where I am going and who I am going with, but my basic style will be there just toned down. My picture area shows my current range. I do not worry about what people think of me. The ones that matter to me either love me or as my company clients, pay me. The rest of my world just accept me and allow me to go about my business. What strangers think of me, I can't control, so I worry less and less about it. I can't say "I have cracked it", but I am frankly amazed at how I can live everyday in a skirt and still do what ever I want to do.