Insults

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
ScotL
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Re: Insults

Post by ScotL »

Coder wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:00 am
ScotL wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 2:10 am Couldn’t agree with you more that what flavor we are shouldn’t matter but I think some of us who aren’t gay, non-binary or trans don’t want the association. Not that there’s anything wrong with any of them except they’re not me.
I agree - but here (at least in reference to the biker dude’s comments) this is making a lot of assumptions of what he was thinking. It’s one thing if someone calls you out as a member of one of those groups and you wish to set the record straight (just as one of those groups might take umbrage being called something they are not). But ultimately - unless you work with that person, or they are family or friends, does it really matter? You’ll see them once and (hopefully) never again - why does it matter what they think? I suggest it shouldn’t matter. There are billions of people on this planet, and what one insignificant speck thinks of another insignificant speck is hardly of any matter.
You are one hundred percent correct. It shouldn’t matter. But what others think of us does affect us. More than we want it to despite us saying it shouldn’t. This underscores the primary reason anyone on this cafe felt any twinge before stepping out skirted even when we wouldn’t be seen by anyone who would ever see us again.

What an insignificant speck thinks of us doesn’t really matter more than 1/7billioneth of a fraction. But that’s not the point I’m trying to make. Our interactions with potential or actual naysayers does matter.

If we act belligerent or sheepishly walk off without a word of “why” we reinforce that persons opinion. If we politely tell our side, we may not change that person but we may have enlightened others. And this could be fruitful if we think in the six degrees of separation.
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Re: Insults

Post by GerdG »

ScotL wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:12 am If we act belligerent or sheepishly walk off without a word of “why” we reinforce that persons opinion. If we politely tell our side, we may not change that person but we may have enlightened others. And this could be fruitful if we think in the six degrees of separation.
I think there is so much wisdom here. Thank you, ScotL.
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Re: Insults

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GerdG wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 12:50 pm
ScotL wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 4:12 am If we act belligerent or sheepishly walk off without a word of “why” we reinforce that persons opinion. If we politely tell our side, we may not change that person but we may have enlightened others. And this could be fruitful if we think in the six degrees of separation.
I think there is so much wisdom here. Thank you, ScotL.
Thanks Gerd! Sometimes, or I should say most times, I don’t want to be an ambassador for men in skirts. Occasionally I feel motivated. But I also think of the ultimate prize and ask am I willing to do the leg work to obtain it? If so, what’s the best way to work?
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Re: Insults

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ScotL wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 11:53 am Only skirtedwalker knows what this biker man was truly like. We are all speculating here.
As far as we know, Walker had only one encounter with him. Do you think that was enough for the former to establish who the latter was as a person?
But stating he is the “opposite of civil”...
I said he was being uncivil in that situation — not that he was overall (I mean, I sure wouldn't consider him to have any civility at all).
and a “judgmental prick”...
It's not much of an assumption to label one as such if he goes around vomiting an "opinion" to someone's face when it's unnecessary.
and a “waste of space of human trash”
Said this about a completely different person. And again, it's not an assumption if someone's going to make a public stink about someone else wearing something. People who do this deserve to have derogatory terms lashed at them for actively being s****y people.
...is making a lot of assumptions. If we make the assumptions that both the other person is this horrible and their comments reflect hatred towards the fact a man is wearing a skirt, we draw lines in the sand and ensure a fight.
I generally have a disdain for people as a whole. Why should I care if my observations with said individual turn out to be assumptions? If someone made the same comment to me, I obviously wouldn't think very highly of that person, now, would I? Humans aren't nearly as complex as we pretend we are.
I believe I was very clear that he should’ve expressed himself better. His opinion is not wrong because opinions reflect what the man is thinking. Thus if he is thinking it, that’s his opinion. That does NOT mean his opinion means anything more than his opinion and does NOT mean his opinion reflects the truth.
He could've simply just stared, or better yet, carry on with the rest of his day without a peep about what another man wears. You CAN have an opinion without voicing it. This isn't about what's true; this is about courtesy — which he DIDN'T display by flat-out stating, "That looks ridiculous, dude." SkirtedWalker might have thick skin, but a younger, vulnerable person might hear this being said to them, get discouraged — to the point that they adopt a less experimental style, get depressed, or worse.
I could have the opinion that the Earth is flat but science doesn’t care what I think. A flat earth would be my true opinion but I am still wrong about the true facts. Sometimes we mistake opinions for facts but shouldn’t.
I don't understand why this was added here. We know that the Earth being flat is thoroughly debunked by a myriad of observations and phenomena that's been explained better by a spherical Earth model than a flat one (which doesn't exist because not a single half-ass attempt has ever worked). Opinions can be wrong, especially when it relates to science. No, his opinion isn't wrong, and it's his right to have that opinion. No one here's interpreting his opinion as a fact. Just be mindful of how you go about it so people won't interpret your negative opinion as an insult.
I wish the biker had expressed his opinion differently. Would we have been as upset in our assumptions of this biker if he had asked why skirtedwalker was wearing a dress and after hearing the reasons stated I don’t like the look but you do you?
I'd still be a bit irritated because it goes back to my point that people who make a "Why?" question clearly wouldn't have been satisfied with any answer because this activity of men "crossdressing" isn't normal, so Walker's answer most likely would've been interpreted as a series of rationalizations and excuses of some sort. I said this before, but "you do you" is a stupid phrase, even if it the message itself is positive.

Can't speak for the others here, but I can imagine SkirtedWalker's post would be a lot different as a result of this hypothetical exchange that sadly didn't happen.
We have to accept that the entire world will not like men wearing skirts. I believe we fight to allow anyone the acceptance to wear anything they want.
Lots of us here already have.
I’ve heard people express their opinions that women shouldn’t wear pants.
It's really old people stuck in the days before the '60s and ultra-conservative religious nutters who actively want to enforce gender roles into people as if they're more than the social constructs society established. Even then, I'd probably hate the latter less than any hypocrite who thinks women wearing pants is fine, but that men shouldn't wear skirts because they're probably too ignorant to realize that women weren't even allowed to wear anything but skirts and dresses. Idiots act as if women wearing pants was always a common thing and not the taboo it was for centuries until it was finally considered acceptable 60 or so years ago.

This is precisely why I'm frustrated with society as whole. Everyone's too goddamn stupid to notice a double standard when they see one, even when it's right in front of their faces. People against women in pants are a very, very small minority in developed countries. People against men in anything that's considered feminine are much, much higher in comparison. It's largely due to sexism and the inability to notice inequality present between the two sexes.
So some people will dislike our skirted outfits.

Again I speak only for myself, but I will have trouble differentiating them disliking me for wearing a skirt versus them disliking how the outfit looks.

I hope I have the courage to discuss my opinions calmly without assuming they are uncivilized, judgmental wastes of space human trash.
Feel as if it's a dig towards me. Wouldn't put it against you if it was. I'm abrasive, distant, and quick to anger. I find a lot of people dumb, annoying, and barely tolerable. In real life, as well as on the Internet.
I know there will be times when the other person won’t be considerate. At these times, I hope I always maintain the high road and disarm them with the question of “why can’t I wear what I like” and “why do you care so much?”
These questions could be potentially dangerous. Someone might take these as being confrontational, which would be the complete opposite of what you're trying to accomplish.
In the end, I remain hopeful that we all don’t judge each other harshly for having opinions that don’t perfectly align with ours. Therefore, civil discussions can occur without judging the book by the cover.
Respect is a two-way street; no reason to be kind if someone's going to be a jackass.
Last edited by TSH on Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Insults

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Gotta agree strongly with TSH here. I also have a cynical, negative sometimes, view of the world/people/humanity.

But also - what's so hard about being nice, keeping your trap shut when you have a negative opinion (unless solicited)? Are we still 6 years old? Adults should know better.
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Re: Insults

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TSH wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:39 am
I generally have a disdain for people as a whole. Why should I care if my observations with said individual turn out to be assumptions? If someone made the same comment to me, I obviously wouldn't think very highly of that person, now, would I? Humans aren't nearly as complex as we pretend we are.
Again I speak only for myself, but I will have trouble differentiating them disliking me for wearing a skirt versus them disliking how the outfit looks.

I hope I have the courage to discuss my opinions calmly without assuming they are uncivilized, judgmental wastes of space human trash.
Feel as if it's a dig towards me. Wouldn't put it against you if it was. I'm abrasive, distant, and quick to anger. I find a lot of people dumb, annoying, and barely tolerable. In real life, as well as on the Internet.

Respect is a two-way street; no reason to be kind if someone's going to be a jackass.
If you want a friend, be a friend. If you react “with disdain” to someone acting with “disdain,” “disdain” will ensue. It is only MY opinion, so take it for what that’s worth, but MY opinion is that reacting with disdain to someone who takes issue with me in a skirt will harden not soften their opinion against men wearing skirts. Just MY opinion. I believe reacting calmly and being informative is a better option. Again. Just MY opinion.

This is just my opinion. That you felt this was a dig at you is your perception but not my intention. I was not making a dig at you. I won’t assume but does the first sentence I quoted explain why you reacted that way towards my opinion?

Respect is a two way street. But I worry what someone unfamiliar with the idea of men wearing skirts for comfort has of us if the man wearing the skirt is disrespectful.
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Re: Insults

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Coder wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:39 pm Gotta agree strongly with TSH here. I also have a cynical, negative sometimes, view of the world/people/humanity.

But also - what's so hard about being nice, keeping your trap shut when you have a negative opinion (unless solicited)? Are we still 6 years old? Adults should know better.
Adults should know better. And when I was a kid, I thought they all were civilized. Until I learned they weren’t.

Some people will be arseholes. That’s a given. But we don’t have to be arseholes back.

I think we get farther by being nice, calm and informative to arseholes than being an arsehole.

We shouldn’t have to put up with their crap but given the current state of the acceptance of men wearing skirts for comfort/fashion the old adage strikes a chord. You attract more bees with honey than vinegar.
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Re: Insults

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ScotL wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:51 pmIf you want a friend, be a friend. If you react “with disdain” to someone acting with “disdain,” “disdain” will ensue. It is only MY opinion, so take it for what that’s worth, but MY opinion is that reacting with disdain to someone who takes issue with me in a skirt will harden not soften their opinion against men wearing skirts.
This is not an observation on the notion of a guy wearing a skirt, it's a comment that society in general has become much coarser and unpleasant. It used to be that one kept his opinions to himself if they were negative out of a respect for society and as part of being civil. Those two notions were badly eroded during the 1980s and finally discarded utterly in the early 2000s. This causes friction between those who grew up and were educated in civil behaviour and the approach of the brash young neo-con of today. I'd go so far as to posit that the last generation that was properly brought up to be civil when out and about were the very early Gen-X folk. Those born after about 1981 or '82 never got properly taught how to behave in public settings -- and it's that which leads to the conflicts.
Respect is a two way street. But I worry what someone unfamiliar with the idea of men wearing skirts for comfort has of us if the man wearing the skirt is disrespectful.
The man wearing the skirt has an absolute right to be as disrespectful as the original commentator, and can modulate his response accordingly. To say that we should just let slights, slurs, and outright insults go unmet is incredibly naive (not to mention entirely passive, which men generally are not). If insulted in public, we have every right to stand our ground. In short, we don't start the exchange -- we finish it; that's how civil society works.
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Re: Insults

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ScotL wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:51 pm If you want a friend, be a friend. If you react “with disdain” to someone acting with “disdain,” “disdain” will ensue.
If someone gives off a bad first impression, I'm not gonna be their "friend". It's as simple as that. I could choose to ignore such a person, but if they keep harassing me, I'm going to call them out on it with as much disdain as I please because taking the "higher ground" doesn't always work, and it can even make a situation worse. That person might assume your have some sort of complex.
It is only MY opinion, so take it for what that’s worth...
MY opinion...
Just MY opinion.
Again. Just MY opinion.
Again with this? I've told you before that you don't need to announce that what you're posting is your opinion. You keep doing this whenever we have these conflicting ideologies; it's really not needed.
...reacting with disdain to someone who takes issue with me in a skirt will harden not soften their opinion against men wearing skirts.
I need to understand why you care so much about this? It's good to have another person to the cause, but if someone doesn't think highly of MiS, why waste the effort of trying to "convert" someone who probably won't have their mind changed? I think we're better off, really.
I believe reacting calmly and being informative is a better option.
It's the better option only IF the recipient is willing to actually receive the information. Not if they're disingenuous and crude.
I was not making a dig at you. I won’t assume but does the first sentence I quoted explain why you reacted that way towards my opinion?
You have to be a bit more specific with what you mean, because how I "react" when I'm responding to someone else varies, and the context can get muddy along the way.
Respect is a two way street. But I worry what someone unfamiliar with the idea of men wearing skirts for comfort has of us if the man wearing the skirt is disrespectful.
If the skirted man is being an asshole, and that passer-by witness this behavior, and assumes that we're all that asshole, guess what? That person is an asshole, too, so f**k 'em if that actually base their opinion on that alone. Besides, it's much more likely it's the person in question being disrespectful to the man wearing the skirt and the latter standing his ground.

crfriend wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:33 pm The man wearing the skirt has an absolute right to be as disrespectful as the original commentator, and can modulate his response accordingly. To say that we should just let slights, slurs, and outright insults go unmet is incredibly naive (not to mention entirely passive, which men generally are not). If insulted in public, we have every right to stand our ground. In short, we don't start the exchange -- we finish it; that's how civil society works.
This is a much better summation of what I thought when responding to Scot's posts. Thank you very much, Carl.
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Re: Insults

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TSH wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:36 pm
crfriend wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:33 pm The man wearing the skirt has an absolute right to be as disrespectful as the original commentator, and can modulate his response accordingly. To say that we should just let slights, slurs, and outright insults go unmet is incredibly naive (not to mention entirely passive, which men generally are not). If insulted in public, we have every right to stand our ground. In short, we don't start the exchange -- we finish it; that's how civil society works.
This is a much better summation of what I thought when responding to Scot's posts. Thank you very much, Carl.
So - how would either of you respond? I might have missed it in reading your responses. I'd just ignore and leave when done.
ScotL wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:56 pm I think we get farther by being nice, calm and informative to arseholes than being an arsehole.
Yes. That option includes ignoring an insult and walking away from the situation. Engaging is another option, but it runs the risk of a bigger confrontation.
TSH wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:36 pm Again with this? I've told you before that you don't need to announce that what you're posting is your opinion. You keep doing this whenever we have these conflicting ideologies; it's really not needed.
My take on ScottL doing this is because - sometimes - it's hard to tell whether someone is voicing an opinion or not, some take things written here too seriously/literally, and I think to avoid conflict.
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Re: Insults

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Coder wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:52 pmSo - how would either of you respond? I might have missed it in reading your responses. I'd just ignore and leave when done.
I would modulate a response, if I deemed a response necessary, according to the level of infraction. If it was merely an asinine comment I'd likely let it go, but if was a personal attack I'd not hesitate to stand my ground -- and then choose my words carefully. I do not suffer fools gracefully, but I choose my wording wisely. If we do not challenge miscreants they will only continue their behaviour. At least in meatspace there's always the danger of a broken nose. That's not so in the very safe "online world" (where nobody knows you're a dog) and aresholes abound.
My take on ScottL doing this is because - sometimes - it's hard to tell whether someone is voicing an opinion or not, some take things written here too seriously/literally, and I think to avoid conflict.
I have a "different take" on ScottL and do not advocate giving ground to transgressors. We -- as human beings -- have a right to stand our ground when challenged, and we have a long history of doing so which is why we got to the level of "civil society" in the first place. 'Tis sad that we threw that away along with everything else in the '80s. As has been commented on by assorted sages, "An armed society is a polite society." Make transgression hurt.
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Re: Insults

Post by moonshadow »

I probably just would have said "ok" shrugged and walked off.
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Re: Insults

Post by ScotL »

So I don’t know why, but I’m having trouble getting my point across.

Yes, people should be nicer. That’s a given. But they’re not.

Carl, there have always been mean people. I wonder if the passing of time softens our memories like my favorite poem states:

“Accept certain inalienable truths: Prices will rise. Politicians will philander. You, too, will get old. And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.”

If not confronted by an unsolicited response, I’m also in favor of just not responding.

My entire point is if, and let me capitalize the IF, IF we are confronted like he was with a direct challenge, I believe it would be best to counter ugly behavior with civilized behavior.

I believe it best not to stoop to their level and react in the same manner as they confronted you.

I believe confronting the confronter with insults, negative responses or challenges will harden that persons negative outlook of men wearing skirts.

I believe entering into any interaction with a priori disdain for my fellow human is more apt to lead to bad encounters.

I believe taking the high road and responding to unsolicited negativity (important to say here IF directly confronted where a response is socially warranted) with calm, cool and collected responses offering infallible reasons for wearing like “I’m comfortable,” “I like the way it looks” and “why do you care so much about something that doesn’t affect you” is a best response in my opinion.

And why do I keep writing “in my opinion?” Cause when I don’t, some people jump down my throat yelling at me that I’m wrong and my private messages get filled with even more filth.

These are just my thoughts on how I believe we should react if confronted as skirtedwalker was and a response could be socially indicated.

But I’ve said my piece and I’ll say no more about it.
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Re: Insults

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Coder wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:52 pm
My take on ScottL doing this is because - sometimes - it's hard to tell whether someone is voicing an opinion or not, some take things written here too seriously/literally, and I think to avoid conflict.
Thank you. This is the reason for why I write as I do. I believe this is a better forum when we give each other the benefit of the doubt. We are all on the same side of the issue of men wearing skirts
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Re: Insults

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Coder wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:52 pm
TSH wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:36 pm
crfriend wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:33 pm The man wearing the skirt has an absolute right to be as disrespectful as the original commentator, and can modulate his response accordingly. To say that we should just let slights, slurs, and outright insults go unmet is incredibly naive (not to mention entirely passive, which men generally are not). If insulted in public, we have every right to stand our ground. In short, we don't start the exchange -- we finish it; that's how civil society works.
This is a much better summation of what I thought when responding to Scot's posts. Thank you very much, Carl.
So - how would either of you respond? I might have missed it in reading your responses. I'd just ignore and leave when done.
I probably implied it somewhere in my posts that it depends if the person asked for permission for their opinion first, or they expressed their thoughts in a manner that doesn't come off as brusque.
My take on ScottL doing this is because - sometimes - it's hard to tell whether someone is voicing an opinion or not, some take things written here too seriously/literally, and I think to avoid conflict.
I dunno. A topic involving people insulting others for petty and stupid reasons propels some of us here to consider these discussions important — which they are. Positivity might be a virtue, but we don't have to extend kindness to those who vehemently oppose us just because our choice in fashion is outside the norm. It's often better that way, anyway.
ScotL wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 12:09 am And Why do I keep writing “in my opinion?” Cause when I don’t, some people jump down my throat yelling at me that I’m wrong and my private messages get filled with even more filth.
I can't say I was aware of that. At least now, I have some clarification. Shame on the ones who keep giving a hard time just for that.
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