Corona Virus

[crfriend]

You said viruses mutate according to nature. Introducing a vaccine is not nature.

Viruses mutate due to many reasons such as background radiation, UV exposure, environmental constraints, and a host of other reasons. This goes on independently of vaccinations which don't attack the virus, they stimulate an immune response in potential hosts. The mechanisms are different.

There is no intelligent design at work here; if a random mutation causes a virus to be more "successful" than it was before the virus will benefit. If a random mutation causes a diminution of capability, then it will suffer and not be able to compete.

What we were trying to do with the vaccines was to provide a bit of defence -- provided by our own bodies' reaction to the vaccine -- against infection and the symptoms that can kill us. The intent was to attenuate the spread of the virus so it would eventually go extinct in the wild because it couldn't spread, and if it can't spread it can't replicate.

Do you think the doctor pursuing an agenda against the other vaccine companies? What do you think his motivation for saying this is?

I have no motivation as to motive.

Are you saying that we could have stopped the Flu from mutating and introducing new strains every year, using that same logic?

Flu, as we know it, takes too many forms to be easily vaccinated against, and the immunity is temporary. Every year, an educated guess is taken at which strains will likely be problems later in the year, and those strains are targeted -- and the number of strains is large enough that an omnibus vaccine isn't practical.

With SARS-CoV-2, on the other hand, we initially had something that was entirely new to the human species and easily identified and defences prepared against. Stopping the spread with vaccines was a long-shot and there were too many in the population who, for various assorted reasons, opted not to get the vaccines. This allowed the virus to continue spreading and replicating in the wild -- and to further mutate which is what is being seen in the "variants". It's not the result of the hand of man, it's man trying to fend off nature with his technology. I don't know that we could have stopped it, but I know that we -- as a species -- blew a marvellous chance at trying.

[Freedomforall]

Carl you always say to follow the money. Well this is where it gets murky and may shed some light on why Malone is being so vocal. According to the attached article there is a Nobel prize due to someone. Just who that someone will be remains to be determined. Many people before and after Malone worked on the mRNA technology. Each of these people contributed something to it. Sales of the mRNA vaccines are expected to surpass $50 million dollars.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

[Freedomforall]

Here is an article refuting the claim made by Malone. It is interesting to note the three scientists who issued the rebuttal to Malone's claim all noted,
"All three reviewers agreed that variants with immune escape abilities would always remain a possibility, with or without vaccines. “No matter what action we take, we have a future where we will have to deal with a virus responding to immune pressure,” Hodcroft said.

Scientists are well aware of this possibility and the dangers this poses, and measures are in place to mitigate the harm this can cause. Fisher cited genetic surveillance efforts as a top priority globally to observe for the emergence of escape mutants, which future versions of COVID-19 vaccines may need to cater for.

But even if the evolution of immune escape remains a concern with or without vaccines, how we choose to confront this problem will lead to significantly different outcomes for public health and the virus’ ability to outsmart the immune system, Hodcroft pointed out. "

Source of article quoted. "https://healthfeedback.org/evaluation/w ... ne-safety/"

[Coder]

With SARS-CoV-2, on the other hand, we initially had something that was entirely new to the human species and easily identified and defences prepared against. Stopping the spread with vaccines was a long-shot and there were too many in the population who, for various assorted reasons, opted not to get the vaccines. This allowed the virus to continue spreading and replicating in the wild -- and to further mutate which is what is being seen in the "variants". It's not the result of the hand of man, it's man trying to fend off nature with his technology. I don't know that we could have stopped it, but I know that we -- as a species -- blew a marvellous chance at trying.

Just one exception - all of the dangerous variants have originated in countries with little to no ability to vaccinate their citizens. No dangerous variant has come out of a country that had a vaccine program in place (except the short-lived UK variant, but that's been long forgotten). That's not to say one won't come out of the current outbreak in the USA, but it hasn't been discovered/happened yet. There was a NY variant that surfaced briefly, but again, Delta blew that and others out of the water. Even lambda and R.1. are being kept in check by a more virulent Delta. I still feel like someone should engineer a non-deadly COVID that spreads to anyone who is exposed, erm, wait that's what we call a vaccine .

"All three reviewers agreed that variants with immune escape abilities would always remain a possibility, with or without vaccines. “No matter what action we take, we have a future where we will have to deal with a virus responding to immune pressure,” Hodcroft said.

Yes - though the key thing - to reduce mutations you need to reduce the quantity of virus out there that can mutate, vaccination helps.

[Gusto10]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021 ... ccine-dose

[crfriend]

Just one exception - all of the dangerous variants have originated in countries with little to no ability to vaccinate their citizens. No dangerous variant has come out of a country that had a vaccine program in place (except the short-lived UK variant, but that's been long forgotten).

That's why international travel restrictions in times of health emergencies are important. Unfortunately, nobody has the stomach to realise that yet, mainly because of the amount of money unrestricted travel makes for several large corporations.

That's not to say one won't come out of the current outbreak in the USA, but it hasn't been discovered/happened yet.

I'm fully expecting one. The question is merely when, not if.

Yes - though the key thing - to reduce mutations you need to reduce the quantity of virus out there that can mutate, vaccination helps.

This.

We managed to eradicate smallpox in the wild, and we got tantalisingly close to driving polio to ground. We should have done better with this.

[Freedomforall]

We all tend to seek out sources of information that reinforce our beliefs, whether it be consciously or subconsciously.

[crfriend]

We all tend to seek out sources of information that reinforce our beliefs, whether it be consciously or subconsciously.

There's part of the problem, and one of the leading causes of the "echo-chambers" that are so common in this "information"-rich world.

There's also the part of "selective reading" or "cherry-picking" of data to justify your own beliefs. It's a human thing, and likely one of the reasons why conspiracy-theory always attracts more attention than the rather boring facts.

[Kirbstone]

Ever watch a Television Documentary?, I'd say that without exception they are all compiled, assembled, laid out & edited precisely to support the producers' pre-held view of and version of events.

Tom

[Freedomforall]

I could not agree more with both of you!

[Ray]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2021 ... ccine-dose

Interesting, but utterly invalid in rejecting the hypothesis that vaccinating is better than not vaccinating.

FUD.

Whatever.

[Sinned]

Ray, there were so many negatives in your statement that it's difficult to get a positive outcome!

[Ray]

Dennis, I don’t know if I’m neither not coming nor not going…

I’ll try to stick to plain English next time. I think I’m being influenced by this thread!

[Freedomforall]

Love this quote!


“It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”

― Thomas Sowell

[Sinned]

I love the English language ....

.... and the sense of humour displayed by its users.