Pollution
Pollution
A friend sent me this lovely pic. of how it used to be.
The current VW and others emissions scam for diesel cars seems minor when compared to this.
Tom
The current VW and others emissions scam for diesel cars seems minor when compared to this.
Tom
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
- crfriend
- Master Barista
- Posts: 15175
- Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
- Location: New England (U.S.)
- Contact:
Re: Pollution
Cute.
The comical part of things is that I frequently see large trucks here belching a plume almost as large as that -- and what one is seeing in that shot is likely the result of sanding the flues (to clean them) so that's all large-scale particulates that'll precipitate back onto the roadbed perhaps by the time that the rear-end of the train has passed. The actual exhaust from a properly-fired coal-burning steam engine is a very, very, faint grey in colour which indicates complete combustion of the carbon and what's seen is actually the impurities in the coal not the result of combustion.
It's only been in the past few years that anybody's bothered to look a Diesels as source of pollution over here; it used to be that they were completely unregulated -- leading to plumes of "exhaust" approaching what's on view in the picture. Fortunately, things have gotten better, but still not good enough.
The comical part of things is that I frequently see large trucks here belching a plume almost as large as that -- and what one is seeing in that shot is likely the result of sanding the flues (to clean them) so that's all large-scale particulates that'll precipitate back onto the roadbed perhaps by the time that the rear-end of the train has passed. The actual exhaust from a properly-fired coal-burning steam engine is a very, very, faint grey in colour which indicates complete combustion of the carbon and what's seen is actually the impurities in the coal not the result of combustion.
It's only been in the past few years that anybody's bothered to look a Diesels as source of pollution over here; it used to be that they were completely unregulated -- leading to plumes of "exhaust" approaching what's on view in the picture. Fortunately, things have gotten better, but still not good enough.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
-
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 2719
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
- Location: southeast NC coast
Re: Pollution
Diesel has its place, but, in the US, I don't see it for most passenger cars. Hybrid technology and the future all-electric technology have taken that pathway from diesel, plus the economics of it in the US. Highway (taxed) diesel is more expensive than gasoline in most states, and there is no longer any advantage in fuel economy or engine life in passenger cars. Heavy trucks are another matter, though, but the cost of the varied tiers with which new diesel engines must now comply to reduce particulate emissions and the varied performance of the new engines is calling the pure diesel technology into question now. Even heavy truck manufacturers are looking hard at hybrid technology. Biodiesel reduces particulates tremendously, but the vegetable oil component has a notoriously limited shelf life. Still, at this juncture, there is no effective option for most heavy farm and construction equipment, as hybrid technology would not work in that power demand environment.
People who paid extra for VW diesel technology bought into a sales pitch which is now being debunked. They are lining up for litigation already. The fines imposed by EPA may be the least of the company's problems in the US.
People who paid extra for VW diesel technology bought into a sales pitch which is now being debunked. They are lining up for litigation already. The fines imposed by EPA may be the least of the company's problems in the US.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
-
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 911
- Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:05 pm
Re: Pollution
There's a lot of confusion, misunderstanding, and outright lies about the VW scandal, and diesel vehicles in general. VW did indeed, screw up big time. Be sad if they go down because of it. I agree that that vehicle technology is way overdue for a major change, and there is already such changes happening. Personal cars are going to be much less of a thing in the future, and what ones exist will be electric, either pure plug in, or serial hybrid probably. Can't come soon enough for me.
Re: Pollution
My son has a 2005 Citroen C5 S2 with the 138 bhp engine in it. For the last 4 years at every MOT test here in UK, the car has passed with zero emissions. Provable by the MOT read outs. Yet he still has to pay £160+ road tax. He did get as far as contacting the DVLA about it, but they said they went on figures supplied by Citroen- and they will not change their figures.
There are not so many smokers in this country now because the police, ministry and VOSA police will crack down on anything that chucks out excess smoke. As a retired trucker with 40 years spent in one, only the less well maintained trucks will throw out sooty smoke now. Years ago, a lot of trucks, cars and vans belched out black smoke under acceleration, but technology has mostly eradicated that. Spent many an hour stuck behind slower moving trucks because I couldn't pass it, due to speed limiters, so noticed trucks are cleaner running now
There are not so many smokers in this country now because the police, ministry and VOSA police will crack down on anything that chucks out excess smoke. As a retired trucker with 40 years spent in one, only the less well maintained trucks will throw out sooty smoke now. Years ago, a lot of trucks, cars and vans belched out black smoke under acceleration, but technology has mostly eradicated that. Spent many an hour stuck behind slower moving trucks because I couldn't pass it, due to speed limiters, so noticed trucks are cleaner running now

-
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 2719
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
- Location: southeast NC coast
Re: Pollution
I'm not sure how any combustion engine has "zero emissions" so I'll presume you mean it has never tested above the allowable standard? Of course, it's a French car so perhaps the zero emissions are because it isn't running? I'm just joking; dont get upset. I like Citroens. Argentina is full of them. Attractive cars. But don't ask me about Peugeot diesels. I drove one for a couple weeks when we lived in Buenos Aires. It only felt like a year. 

As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
Re: Pollution
Well Gregg, you're laughing all the way to the Bank with your C5.
Over here on this sainted isle in mid 2008 'they' changed the road tax calculation for private cars from one based on the cubic capacity of the engine to one based on manufacturers' stated emission figures, so two identical diesel cars, one registered in April 2008, the other registered in August of that year attract to this day vastly different annual road tax, so for example, post mid-2008 2-liter diesel Mercs & Beemers have annual road tax of Eur 200, based on their stated emissions.
I expect that very shortly all these will get a considerable hike! For My old 2-liter petrol burner Merc. I have to pay Eur 710 annual road tax for the pleasure of driving it out my front gate.
Tom
Over here on this sainted isle in mid 2008 'they' changed the road tax calculation for private cars from one based on the cubic capacity of the engine to one based on manufacturers' stated emission figures, so two identical diesel cars, one registered in April 2008, the other registered in August of that year attract to this day vastly different annual road tax, so for example, post mid-2008 2-liter diesel Mercs & Beemers have annual road tax of Eur 200, based on their stated emissions.
I expect that very shortly all these will get a considerable hike! For My old 2-liter petrol burner Merc. I have to pay Eur 710 annual road tax for the pleasure of driving it out my front gate.

Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
-
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 2719
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
- Location: southeast NC coast
Re: Pollution
Wow, Tom. Those are some steep fees. We would have a second revolution here with fees like that. Regardless of the good they would do, and the fact that we need them. Our transportation infrastructure is massive and expensive to repair, and in need of repair.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
-
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 2719
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
- Location: southeast NC coast
Re: Pollution
BTW,Tom. Last night the wife and I went to an IFB film, called "Jimmy's Hall", about Jimmy Gralton. I was not quite educated enough in modern Irish history to appreciate it all, but it was well acted, IMO. I was skirted of course.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
Re: Pollution
Dillon,
You are privileged that you have a wifie who allows you wear skirts/klits out & about. With a population of not much more than 4 million in the whole country and more than a thousand miles of near-empty motorways the individual contribution by motorists is great for the freedom to use the network. There are about half a dozen toll collection places, reflecting a degree of 'private' partnership investments made.
Maybe I live on another planet, but I haven't heard of the performers you mention.
A slight help is lower fuel tax here than in the UK. 'When we travel through Britain to the 'Contenong' we tank up in order not to have to buy fuel with Sterling. I recently towed a large trailer load of racing rowing boats to Belgium via Hull-Zeebrugge (and back!) Fuel costs there are lower than in Ireland, so we got a fill-up of diesel there for Eur 1.08 per liter.....about 83 pee in Sterling.
Tom
You are privileged that you have a wifie who allows you wear skirts/klits out & about. With a population of not much more than 4 million in the whole country and more than a thousand miles of near-empty motorways the individual contribution by motorists is great for the freedom to use the network. There are about half a dozen toll collection places, reflecting a degree of 'private' partnership investments made.
Maybe I live on another planet, but I haven't heard of the performers you mention.
A slight help is lower fuel tax here than in the UK. 'When we travel through Britain to the 'Contenong' we tank up in order not to have to buy fuel with Sterling. I recently towed a large trailer load of racing rowing boats to Belgium via Hull-Zeebrugge (and back!) Fuel costs there are lower than in Ireland, so we got a fill-up of diesel there for Eur 1.08 per liter.....about 83 pee in Sterling.
Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
-
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 2719
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
- Location: southeast NC coast
Re: Pollution
Yes, Tom...I had not heard of Gralton either, but apparently he was a socialist organizer during the 1920s and 30s. I just assumed he was well-known in Ireland and that I was simply ignorant of modern Irish history, which is also true.
Gasoline (petrol) here in eastern NC is around $2.05 to $2.20 per US gallon, diesel around $2.45.
Gasoline (petrol) here in eastern NC is around $2.05 to $2.20 per US gallon, diesel around $2.45.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
Re: Pollution
Sorry, Dillon,
I quoted UK expenses, as Sterling is currently high against the Euro. At Ca. 3.8 liters to the US gallon, even in Belgium they'd screw you for something over $4 for a gallon of diesel.
I looked up that joker you mention on Wiki. He was born towards the end of the 19th Century , became a rabid communist and was promptly deported out of Ireland (by the British) in 1909, living out his life in NY or thereabouts.
He therefore played no part whatever in modern Irish history and I am not surprised I had never heard of him. Drumsna is a tiny picturesque little hamlet high up on the upper reaches of the river Shannon, our largest river.
I expect there are myriads of more entertaining films out there......
Tom
I quoted UK expenses, as Sterling is currently high against the Euro. At Ca. 3.8 liters to the US gallon, even in Belgium they'd screw you for something over $4 for a gallon of diesel.
I looked up that joker you mention on Wiki. He was born towards the end of the 19th Century , became a rabid communist and was promptly deported out of Ireland (by the British) in 1909, living out his life in NY or thereabouts.
He therefore played no part whatever in modern Irish history and I am not surprised I had never heard of him. Drumsna is a tiny picturesque little hamlet high up on the upper reaches of the river Shannon, our largest river.
I expect there are myriads of more entertaining films out there......
Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
Re: Pollution
Jim Gralton was born in 1886 while Ireland was part of the UK. He emigrated to the United States in 1909, but came back to fight in the War of Independence, and later in 1932. He ran a dance hall and came under the scrutiny of the local Catholic clergy. He was deported by the government of the "Irish Free State" as an "alien".Kirbstone wrote:Sorry, Dillon,
I quoted UK expenses, as Sterling is currently high against the Euro. At Ca. 3.8 liters to the US gallon, even in Belgium they'd screw you for something over $4 for a gallon of diesel.
I looked up that joker you mention on Wiki. He was born towards the end of the 19th Century , became a rabid communist and was promptly deported out of Ireland (by the British) in 1909, living out his life in NY or thereabouts.
He therefore played no part whatever in modern Irish history and I am not surprised I had never heard of him. Drumsna is a tiny picturesque little hamlet high up on the upper reaches of the river Shannon, our largest river.
I expect there are myriads of more entertaining films out there......
Tom
He was not deported by the British.
According to the wiki article-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gralton
"There were violent protests against these dances, led by Catholic priests, which culminated in a shooting incident. Following this, on 9 February 1933, he was arrested, and later deported to the United States of America, on the basis that he was an alien.[4] This led to public protests organised by the Irish Republican Army.[5]"
Re: Pollution
Corrected. I quoted Wikipaedia incorrectly. I only skimmed through the article, as the bloke in question seems to have been a troublemaker and I found his life description less than riveting.
Tom
Tom
Carpe Diem......Seize the Day !
- moonshadow
- Member Extraordinaire
- Posts: 7282
- Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
- Location: Lake Goodwin, Washington
- Contact:
Re: Pollution
I'm not an expert on this, and I don't really have any hard quotable facts to stage a debate, but just my off the cuff thoughts on this subject are:
I man was rocketed to the moon almost 50 years ago, and yet for some reason the technology that drives automobiles has remained relatively unchained for over 100 years. I know there have been advancements made with MPG, emissions, fuel injections, so on and so forth, but consider the scale of virtually every other technology vs the automobile. My tabletop calculator that I paid $3 for at the Dollar General is faster at calculations than a building sized computer of 50 years ago. Look at the advancements in medicine, communication, workplace productivity, etc, then look at the automobile. We've went from a standard of what, maybe 7-10MPG for a family car 50 years ago to maybe 30-40. An increase yes, but on the scale of virtually everything else, you'd think we'd have auto's that if they were still burning gasoline, would be getting mileage in the thousands at least! But then again, the point is moot, because if the technology advanced like everything else, we'd probably be using some other source of fuel.
Why?
I've got some theories, but they are along "conspiracy" lines, and not rooted in provable facts unfortunately. I have watched on a few documentaries, websites, books that the big oil companies are essentially pulling the strings on this one. I believe on the documentary Harlan County USA, one protester pointed out that the coal companies are owned by the big oil companies. They are all in the same group. Are they all in a big plot to hold down alternative fuels in the name of profit?
Again, maybe total BS, but still, given the puzzle pieces already on the table, it does make a man wonder....
Regardless of the politics and conspiracies, any logical mind should conclude that sooner or later the fossil fuels will run out. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 1000, that's a topic for debate, but it doesn't change the fact that if we continue to consume them at our current pace, they will expire sooner or later. Probably sooner.
And I don't care what anyone says, the fossil fuel industry DOES harm the planet. I work in the coal fields, I see the evidence daily. I've driven along mountain sides where fracking is taking place. Hundreds if not thousands of acres of barren mountain sides littered with gas wells.
On the other side of the overlook we see this:
Pretty summer flowers, green trees, and off in the distance a huge hole where a mountain used to be! This isn't something I snatched off a tree huggers website. This is my picture, I was there, I snapped it.
I man was rocketed to the moon almost 50 years ago, and yet for some reason the technology that drives automobiles has remained relatively unchained for over 100 years. I know there have been advancements made with MPG, emissions, fuel injections, so on and so forth, but consider the scale of virtually every other technology vs the automobile. My tabletop calculator that I paid $3 for at the Dollar General is faster at calculations than a building sized computer of 50 years ago. Look at the advancements in medicine, communication, workplace productivity, etc, then look at the automobile. We've went from a standard of what, maybe 7-10MPG for a family car 50 years ago to maybe 30-40. An increase yes, but on the scale of virtually everything else, you'd think we'd have auto's that if they were still burning gasoline, would be getting mileage in the thousands at least! But then again, the point is moot, because if the technology advanced like everything else, we'd probably be using some other source of fuel.
Why?
I've got some theories, but they are along "conspiracy" lines, and not rooted in provable facts unfortunately. I have watched on a few documentaries, websites, books that the big oil companies are essentially pulling the strings on this one. I believe on the documentary Harlan County USA, one protester pointed out that the coal companies are owned by the big oil companies. They are all in the same group. Are they all in a big plot to hold down alternative fuels in the name of profit?
Again, maybe total BS, but still, given the puzzle pieces already on the table, it does make a man wonder....
Regardless of the politics and conspiracies, any logical mind should conclude that sooner or later the fossil fuels will run out. Maybe in 10 years, maybe in 1000, that's a topic for debate, but it doesn't change the fact that if we continue to consume them at our current pace, they will expire sooner or later. Probably sooner.
And I don't care what anyone says, the fossil fuel industry DOES harm the planet. I work in the coal fields, I see the evidence daily. I've driven along mountain sides where fracking is taking place. Hundreds if not thousands of acres of barren mountain sides littered with gas wells.
On the other side of the overlook we see this:
Pretty summer flowers, green trees, and off in the distance a huge hole where a mountain used to be! This isn't something I snatched off a tree huggers website. This is my picture, I was there, I snapped it.