Being seen

[Milfmog]

Do continental Europeans have trouble distinguishing between the different nations of the British Isles, or is it easier just to lump them all together as "England"?

I'm not sure about continental Europeans, but even I as a dim-witted Yank know the 3 countries that combined under the Act of Union to create the United Kingdom, sometimes aka "Great Britain". There's ample evidence just from the flag alone. I suspect that what we're seeing here is a measure of confusion brought on by the use of the language-name coinciding with one of the original country-names.

So, as I see it -- strictly speaking -- an Englishman is one who was born in (or, less formally, resides in) the territory which was England proper and a "Brit" is a citizen of the United Kingdom, of which England is one component. So, all Englishmen are Brits but not all Brits are Englishmen.

How's that for throwing mud on the thing?

I started to reply to this; but suspect that I would be throwing too much fuel on a fire that is only just threatening to smoulder. I think I will gracefully bow out of the conversation at this point.

Have fun,


Ian.

[skirtingtoday]

No more need be said on the Brit/English thing.

I remember many years ago when I was on holiday we met a couple from Wales. They could hardly understand my spoken English (even though I don't believe I have a strong accent) and they presumed I was from Germany. They were speaking veeeerrrryyyy sssslllloooowwwwwllllyyy as they thought that would help me understand them !

BTW I had no trouble with their accent and understood them perfectly when they spoke at normal speed (Until they spoke Welsh that is).

[Milfmog]

I remember many years ago when I was on holiday we met a couple from Wales. They could hardly understand my spoken English (even though I don't believe I have a strong accent) and they presumed I was from Germany.

I have to confess that I am surprised they had an issue, maybe they had never heard English spoken with neither a Welsh nor Hollywood accent? I certainly did not think you had a strong accent when we met. (Having said that I was working very closely with a couple of Glaswegians at the time).

Have fun,


Ian.

[skirtingtoday]

Thanks Ian,
Talking of Scottish accents, there was a one hour documentary (only shown in Scotland) just before Christmas called "Dream me up Scotty", that took clips from television and film of the more outrageous accents that actors have tried to portray as a "Scots" dialect. Sadly it is not available on iPlayer but here is a summary of a few of the people who have tried it ranging from reasonably successfully to rather less so. Even the White Heather club rolled out over many Hogmanays, was little different than "posh English" with an "och aye the noo" thrown in every so often to let you know it was really Scottish (oh dear!). Even when BBC Scotland started up, the people spoke little differently from the standard, "This is the BBC" accent.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25413482

Now when you wish an odd character, you give them a Scots accent such as the dwarves in the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit sagas (at least those accents were reasonably close). And when you get good real Scottish films, they are all dubbed into "more correct English" ("Trainspotting" and "Angels Share" spring to mind) or worse, subtitled!

[BobM]

I remember many years ago when I was on holiday we met a couple from Wales. They could hardly understand my spoken English (even though I don't believe I have a strong accent) and they presumed I was from Germany. They were speaking veeeerrrryyyy sssslllloooowwwwwllllyyy as they thought that would help me understand them !

Speaking of accents, my late mother-in-law was surprised when she came to North Carolina that the natives had no trouble at all with her moderately thick brogue. She lived 50 years in Massachusetts where very few people understood her clearly.

[dillon]

It is often the combination of voice tonal characteristics, accent, and pronunciation that make for difficulties. I have had the pleasure of working with a number of New Zealanders in the past and only one spoke in a manner that I found unintelligible. In fact, I had an easier time understanding friends from Spain speaking in Castillian, than I did in understanding that gentleman speaking in English!

[skirtingtoday]

I am sure there are many dialects - one I recall is a fellow from Scotland who was working in Australia and they could not understand what his name was. He said it as Day-vid Lato (actual name was David Latto) but they only understood it when he said Dye-vid Leddo.

Anyway, to put this thread back on track, I would think that most people do not see a man in a skirt but just a man. Most have their own thoughts, iPad's mobile phones, laptops to even consider much around them. Perhaps 10-20% of people notice at all (ususlly as a double-take) in my experience.

I did read of one (true) tale about a man who was renowned for concentrating very hard at the card game bridge, that some of his mates decided to test that out. They arranged for a woman to walk round the bridge table a couple of times, completely naked. They asked him afterwards if he noticed anything unusual about the last hand he had played and he replied, "Yes I did - my opponent unexpectedly played an Ace on trick 3 which gave me the contract"

So there!