Being seen

[couyalair]

We all know from the topic "Sightings", that most of us never see another man in a skirt.

But how many people see us in our open garments?

A long time ago, our friend Carl wrote that every time we are seen in public we are an advertisement for fashion freedom and an encouragement to other men who might feel tempted to try a skirt.

While I was living and working in Grenoble, my routines were such that my skirts and kilts were probably not seen be vast numbers. I walked or cycled along the same stretches of un-crowded streets, shopped at the same supermarket, took the same crowded bus/tram where my clothes were mostly hidden from view by the other travelers.
Now, however, I am in a holiday town where thousands of visitors pour in every week. The town is quite compact, so everyone walks to the shops, library, railway station, etc, and there are always great numbers of people on the streets. People sit on café terraces and watch the world go by. I'm sure I am seen and noticed by several hundred people every time I go out, even if it's only on a short errand, and, because it's a holiday town, that will be hundreds of different people each week, who go back home and -- perhaps -- tell their friends that there's a funny man in Torremolinos who doesn't wear trousers!

As far as I know, no-one has ever followed my example, but it would be nice to find out -- probably an impossibility -- whether anyone has been set to thinking by the sight of me -- by the sight of any of us who go out and about without the hindrance of leg-tubes.

Martin

[crfriend]

We all know from the topic "Sightings", that most of us never see another man in a skirt.

But how many people see us in our open garments?

Since I make no attempt to hide (it'd be a waste of time, anyway) I'm sure that I get noticed by several, if not dozens, of folks every time I step foot out the door. That just goes with the territory.

On the term "open garments": The more I think about that, the more I like it as it accurately describes skirts -- especially shorter ones -- without using the term "skirt". The only downside is that it's two words instead of one, and it'd be handy to have a one-word term. In that light, I do not hesitate one bit to use the term "skirt" to describe the "single-tube" styles I wear. It's the viewer who may need the mental crutch when it comes to the words, not me.

A long time ago, our friend Carl wrote that every time we are seen in public we are an advertisement for fashion freedom and an encouragement to other men who might feel tempted to try a skirt.

I stand by that comment, and that's why I try very diligently to put forward a look that is hopefully worthy of emulation. It's also why I cringe so when I see some of the outlandish stuff that usually goes down the catwalk or when somebody thoughtlessly throws something together that happens to include a skirt and calls it "fashion freedom". With "freedom" also comes implicit permission to make one's self look ridiculous; however, if one is trying to encourage and foster positive attitudes and change going forward one has the responsibility to present a cogent and non-dissonant look that folks will notice and make them think, "Perhaps I could carry that off".

As far as I know, no-one has ever followed my example, but it would be nice to find out -- probably an impossibility -- whether anyone has been set to thinking by the sight of me -- by the sight of any of us who go out and about without the hindrance of leg-tubes.

Alas, that is sadly the case. Even if your example encourages perhaps dozens to contemplate open garments and possibly some of those to adopt same, it's impossible to know. Even when we learn, usually the hard way, that the world is a tiny place it's still a vast landscape and most of us fade quite quickly into the background to be forgotten with the rest.

[skirtyscot]

Martin, you could look at this the other way round. Now, thousands of people see you skirted each year, for a few short seconds. In Grenoble, a smaller number of people saw you time and time again. The people who used the same tram line as you and travelled at roughly the same time as you, and the people who habitually used those same quiet streets: even though you may have been partly hidden, they would have noticed you, and after the first time they would have noticed you more easily. I'd say you were more likely to influence them than any one of the hordes of Brits swilling Carling Black Label outside the bars of Torremolinos.

And of course, there was that time that a few fortunate Grenoblois (?) saw two men in skirts. If that didn't make them think, what will?

[Caultron]

...And of course, there was that time that a few fortunate Grenoblois (?) saw two men in skirts. If that didn't make them think, what will?

Hmm. I've been wearing utility kilts to ice hockey games for about a month now -- about eight games -- and so has another guy who sits in the next section over. But so far there's no groundswell of others.

[couyalair]

... there was that time that a few fortunate Grenoblois (correct) saw two men in skirts. If that didn't make them think, what will?

I'm sure it made them think.
Probably "That poor woman having to put up with those two funny men -- probably spoiling her holiday completely!"

For several years, I walked twice a week from the tram stop to the dance hall in a rather rough area (mostly immigrants or offspring thereof). There were a few laughs, but after a while, the locals lost interest, even when there were two of us going along together in our skirts (known as "kilts" in some parts of the world). The other men coming country dancing arrived by car, kilted but probably unnoticed.

As for the beer-swilling Brits ... One thing that makes me prefer a plain skirt to a tartan one is that I have no wish for the locals to associate me with those louts; nor with Scottish nationalists, although, if I were in Catalonia, it could be an advantage to be taken for a "freedom fighter".

Martin

[norstdresses]

As I wear dresses almost every time. I have been seen by many people and here in Botswana, after staying four month here, it is something normal that this German is wearing dresses. even Botswana apply a conservative dress code, the society is very open to accept differences.

[skirtingtoday]

As for the beer-swilling Brits ... One thing that makes me prefer a plain skirt to a tartan one is that I have no wish for the locals to associate me with those louts; nor with Scottish nationalists, although, if I were in Catalonia, it could be an advantage to be taken for a "freedom fighter".

Martin

Martin - Wow! I am really sorry you do not wish to associate with Scotsmen (who are much more likely to wear tartan) and seem to be under the delusion they are your “beer-swilling Brits” and calls us "louts". Are you not considering English beer-swillers who are the main source of giving the UK in general a bad name?

Please do differentiate between Scots and English and don’t just call us all by the term Brits (which btw covers Wales, N Ireland and Scotland as well as England) as synonymous and identical to Englanders.

Don’t get me wrong, but I too would not wish to associate with English beer-swillers any more than any-one else but it can be shown that Scotsmen, whilst we do enjoy a good drink, (no denying that) will just be having a good time and wouldn’t be prone to pick fights, cause trouble or smash anything.

I can recall one early morning (about 4am) when I was awoken by some drunken singers in the street outside. We looked out the window and saw a couple of fellows in kilts and I commented to MOH that it was just some lads enjoying themselves. No problem, back to bed! Without their kilts, I may have been inclined to keep an eye on them and possibly call the Police complaining of “disturbing the peace.”

Roll on Independence – please!

[couyalair]

I must have expressed myself badly. Two unassociated subjects got run together in my writing.
The beer-swilling Brits come from all over those islands (yes, plenty of Irish here too), and my mentioning tartan kilts and Scottish independence had nothing to do with my feelings for the foreigners that come here giving a very poor image of their home countries.

I am of course happy to be with Scotsmen; my misgivings come from the fact that, so far, I have not come across many Brits whose standards and interests are like mine. The immigrants are here because they had no work (probably no capacity for work) at home, and can get odd jobs here that allow them to live in the sun and enjoy a low cost of living. Perhaps I was spoiled before, living in university towns with residents of a different kind.

Although I wear tartan kilts myself, I am no more in favour of Scottish separatists than I am of independence for Corsicans, Basques, Bretons or Catalonians. I am a firm believer in the unity of Europe and would not like to see it breaking up again. We got off to a good start with a small group of similar countries making a complete break with the terrible past, working together rather than against each other. We have had many years of prosperity and peace. I don't think that multiplying the independent regions will help, since we have not yet set up any system of common government, to sort out the differences. Already, the union having extended too quickly to too many other countries (the rot set in when they let Mrs Thatcher impose her Reaganistic doctrines), we have made no progress in harmonizing the fiscal policies, health systems, education etc of so many different cultures, and big business has taken over with less and less benefit for the common people.

So ... "louts" did not refer to the Scots! I do agree taht Scots and Englanders are quite different, but "Brits" is a convenient word for all those off-shore islanders that, for some reason, always manage to stand out among other Europeans. Here on the Costa del Sol, they do not stand out for any noble qualities unfortunately.

I do try to write clearly -- sorry if my words are not as clear as the ideas in my head.

Martin

[couyalair]

I wrote:
"One thing that makes me prefer a plain skirt to a tartan one is that I have no wish for the locals to associate me with ..."

Not for any political reasons; I just have no wish to be put in a box. Unfortunately people are very quick to put others in labeled boxes based on appearance.

I have every sympathy with Scotland, but prefer to be thought of as a European rather than just someone from some small region of the continent.
I get on well with gay men, but prefer to be thought of as a man that does not follow the flock rather than with any one sexual activity.

Martin

[skirtingtoday]

“Brits” (and the word British) are unfortunate words nowadays as many people round the world associate Britain as being just England. Indeed when I was at school taking French, there was a map of Europe on the wall centred on France (obviously) and had the French names for adjacent countries. “Angleterre” was written over England but the word started in central Scotland meaning that Scotland (to the French map cartographers) was little more than a region of England.

It annoys me also on aeroplanes when the stewardess comes over the tannoy saying, “That all those people with English passports...” do/do not need a particular form or whatever for landing. As far as I am aware, there is no such thing as an “English Passport” but a British one, but even here, Britain and England are regarded by many as one and the same thing. This situation is gradually changing.

It has taken a long time for the English national flag to be waved at sporting events as in times gone past, the Union flag was always waved for the English competing teams. There is still the annoyance that in some sporting events, that the UK National anthem is sung for the English team – but hopefully that will eventually change. :S

I cringe whenever I see the adulteration that many Brits (though mainly English in my opinion) have done to the Spanish resorts such as Costa Del Sol and that is the main reason I would not venture anywhere near to those areas of Spain. So I can well sympathise and understand any reticence in being associated with such people and their behaviour. What I wished to clarify is that I have found that only one section of British nationals are the most likely to be the source of trouble.

And btw, when I said Independence, it is not meant as a “go it alone” but to be an independent state once again, separate from the present British parliament, and still being within Europe.

[couyalair]

Quite agree about the bad use of "English"/anglais etc instead of the correct "British"/britannique etc. I don't think you'll ever get the French to stop saying "anglais". I think this misuse as reinforced by the fact we call the language "English", even the variants spoken north of the border or west of the Irish sea.
It annoys me too that they call today's international lingua franca "English" even though it bears less and less resemblance to what you'll hear on the islands. In fact it is rather the language imported by traders from beyond the Atlantic, not the language spread around the globe by British settlers.

Martin

[Grok]

Do continental Europeans have trouble distinguishing between the different nations of the British Isles, or is it easier just to lump them all together as "England"?

[crfriend]

Do continental Europeans have trouble distinguishing between the different nations of the British Isles, or is it easier just to lump them all together as "England"?

I'm not sure about continental Europeans, but even I as a dim-witted Yank know the 3 countries that combined under the Act of Union to create the United Kingdom, sometimes aka "Great Britain". There's ample evidence just from the flag alone. I suspect that what we're seeing here is a measure of confusion brought on by the use of the language-name coinciding with one of the original country-names.

So, as I see it -- strictly speaking -- an Englishman is one who was born in (or, less formally, resides in) the territory which was England proper and a "Brit" is a citizen of the United Kingdom, of which England is one component. So, all Englishmen are Brits but not all Brits are Englishmen.

How's that for throwing mud on the thing?

[Chris Webb]

Truth be told the term 'kilt' has been adopted by American Society as the appropriate word for any skirt worn on a man in a masculine way. Even the Rednecks at the Flea Market I was at the other day (I posted a thread about it), called my skirt a 'kilt'. I think the reason behind this is that folks can bend their minds much more easily around a man in a kilt than they can a man in a skirt. Since a kilt is a skirt, to most Americans, the cognitive dissonance of seeing a man in a skirt is resolved by simply calling it a kilt.

Now I've been on kilt forums for 10 years now and I can already hear some of the kiltmen crying fowl. I realize that the Traditional Scottish Kilt is sacred in some circles, which is why it gets to be called the Traditional Scottish Kilt. If it makes it easier to share the word 'kilt' with the rest of us then we should simply add adjectives that describe the kind of kilt we happen to be wearing. At the flea market I was wearing an a-line denim mini skirt, the wind was blowing very hard, I called it a windproof denim mini kilt and the Rednecks all grinned wide in approval!

Frankly, we should go along with this. Kilt ON!

[skirtingtoday]

Perhaps that is a way forward. After all, we do already have traditional kilts, utilitikilts (alternatively cargo kilts), hiking kilts (by elkommando) in khaki, denim, leather, black etc). If the prices were a bit lower, many more may venture out and try them.

Yes, heaven forbid that a man actually wears a "skirt" but we're all fine and OK with a man in a kilt. Yes, that would work, no matter if the kilt is short, knee-length or long, calling it a kilt does make it much more acceptable to Joe Public.

Kilt on!

Btw, you look great in your "windproof denim kilt"!