Love my wife

[BobM]

Some people, even intelligent ones, just don't get it. For whatever reason their thinking becomes canalized so that new ideas or new arrangements of older ideas are never seriously considered.

[crfriend]

Well, Dennis, there's no other way to put it than, "That sucks."

In the same manner that two wrongs very seldom make a right, two irrational acts very seldom produce a rational outcome. I admit to similar actions in the past, undertaken mainly out of sheer exasperation, where the other party never specified what the intended outcome was supposed to be, any of my attempts to meet it were 100% unsuccessful -- and, ultimately, got to the same level where you two are at now: "What the F**K do you REALLY want?" thereby throwing the question very forcefully into the other side of the court.

Relationships are supposed to be based on mutual understanding, trust, and communication -- and that last one is paramount when something seems amiss with the first two. If any of those three pillars are wobbly, the relationship is ultimately only as strong as the wobbly one.

Here's hoping this'll work out and you have a good holiday!

[STEVIE]

Hi Dennis,
Having been through quite a few of these rows myself, I can really sympathise.
There will never be a good time for them but sometimes, happen they must. Is it just possible that this may open a way for the two of you to actually sit down and talk it over? It's also worth considering couple counselling if you're both open to the idea.
For the time being, do not be tempted into anthing more rash, simmer down and allow her to do the same.
I can't profess to see the outcome for you and yours but take care.
I'll also add that if you wish, P.M. me anytime, sometimes 1-1 helps.
Steve.

[Sinned]

Thanks guys,

Yeah, life sucks. Well there's a dignified silence with her trying to pretend that there's nothing wrong. The clothes are in the suitcase, just thrown in anyhow and they can stay like that. Won't do any harm as there's nothing that will crease. Trouble is I feel that my holiday is ruined but I'm mature enough not to let others see that. MOH asked me a while ago when the holiday was booked if I was looking forward to it and I said No but wouldn't give her a reason. I just knew that it would turn out like this and I've been proved right. To me her feelings and reasons ARE irrational and not well thought out but even though I've explained time and again she still won't see it. We've know each other for 38 years and she must know in her heart that I'm not homo and have not shown any sign in that direction. Nothing wrong with that lifestyle if that's what suits you but it's not me. She's seen me reject a lot of feminine styles ( makeup tc ) even though she has ENCOURAGED me in those directions - illogical? Yet still she doesn't see. Ah, well, I'll spend the holiday chilling out and try and make the holiday enjoyable for the rest of the family. They're not really involved in our disagreement. I'm not that centred that I can't think of others. I'm tempted to take a skirt or two just in case because if the opportunity crops up and I have the skirts I can take advantage but taking them might aggravate the situation. Decisions, decisions. I'll try and log on again before I go but if I don't then thanks for the empathy and advice. Things will happen as they will but I'll try and do nothing to make it worse.

Stv, I may take you up on the PM offer, but after the holidays.

Be well and have fun, skirted or otherwise.

Dnns

[STEVIE]

Dennis,
Try to make the most of the "holiday", and enjoy to the best you can.
For what it's worth, my tuppence worth would be to pack one skirt only and wear it when you can choose.
I think I've ranted enough about "choices" elsewhere, but if it helps, don't knock it.
As for the rest, anytime, you choose. I make one promise to anyone who confides in me "I never repeat".
Steve.

[crfriend]

[...] The clothes are in the suitcase, just thrown in anyhow and they can stay like that. Won't do any harm as there's nothing that will crease.

The important observation is that she returned. That says something.

Trouble is I feel that my holiday is ruined but I'm mature enough not to let others see that.

Offhand, I'd say that even if the skirts were packed back into the bag I'd not "push" terribly hard on the matter. There's precious little point in making a bad situation possibly worse. (That's the pragmatist in me speaking.)

MOH asked me a while ago when the holiday was booked if I was looking forward to it and I said No but wouldn't give her a reason. I just knew that it would turn out like this and I've been proved right.

So there was a level of telegraphy involved in the mix even before the mixture exploded. I'll bet a week's wages (not that that matters to me much at the point as I'm unemployed) that your comment of "not looking forward to it" -- without comment -- helped ignite the thing. Here's where honest and open communication is really key; if the two of you cannot bare your souls to one another in open conversation then I'll posit it's not going to go well -- and I would be positively thrilled to be proved wrong.

To me her feelings and reasons ARE irrational and not well thought out but even though I've explained time and again she still won't see it.

Viz my commentary on attempting to use logic and rational thought to combat irrational emotional responses -- it doesn't work, and likely cannot. You will not "win" that fight, so abandon even trying.

Ah, well, I'll spend the holiday chilling out and try and make the holiday enjoyable for the rest of the family. They're not really involved in our disagreement. I'm not that centred that I can't think of others.

That's an entirely healthy way of approaching the matter, and I applaud you for understanding that. The world is larger than we are, and sometimes it's only occasionally that we can get it to go the way we choose.

I'm tempted to take a skirt or two just in case because if the opportunity crops up and I have the skirts I can take advantage but taking them might aggravate the situation.

If they weren't "packed" for you, leave them off save to possibly comment on the possibility of a sarong in the heat of a hot day if one appears at a shop someplace for the right price.

[skirtingtoday]

Sinned,

I too can empathise with you - I've had the same "discussions" with MOH with the same arguments as you such as "looking like a girl", "are you weird", "if I'd known this when we were to be married it would have been goodbye", "why do you want to spoil everything", "what will the neighbours say/think", "do you think XXXXX wears a skirt", "you'll get arrested", "you'll get beaten up" and so on and on and on...

We don't talk about it any more.

I still wear skirts but only outside occasionally and I have found that none of the above apply. In fact shop assistants seen to be more helpful, have nice smiles (and not laughing either) and they and Joe Public generally ignore/don't notice it. I am comfortable in myself and confident in wearing one but I just wish that MOH could see some illogic in her arguments.

There have been quite a few times in the streets, that I have seen men and lads wearing baggy shorts that I thought were wearing skirts so the difference is even more minimal from even quite close distances. Seen some men wearing tights through ripped denims, under cycling shorts (yes they were real tights and not the bespoke "cycling tights") and another fellow had a blue pair of tights under candy stripe blue/white shorts.

Ross

[Silhouette Legs]

I'm with Dennis on this one. It's all well and good woman preaching to us about how we shouldn't wear skirts but if somebody tried to deny them their right to wear trousers do you think they'd take it lying down?

[BobM]

A few years ago the U.S. government spent a lot of money on an academic study which shockingly concluded that men and women are different! Really? Who would have thought?

The wonder is not that we manage to communicate as well as we do, but that we communicate at all. Male and female brains are wired very differently. So differently that things men see as obvious and undeniable are nothing of the sort to women. Men tend to be empirical in most things, but women are more emotive. That is one reason arguing mere facts is frequently unproductive. Arguments couched in terms prevalent in the female universe are much more likely to produce satisfactory results than hammering facts. In other words, you have to get inside her head, not just bounce words off of it.

[skirtilator]

@BobM

I guess that is all debunked by Cordelia Fine.

http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html

[BobM]

@BobM

I guess that is all debunked by Cordelia Fine.

http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html

Really? Not so much: http://www.epjournal.net/blog/2010/09/a-fine-book/

I will also observe that there are quite a few members here in the same situation, namely that reason and logic have little effect when emotions are the judge, and they suffer for it. My use of "canalized" applies more broadly than some recognize. But whoever wants to is welcome to continue down the same unproductive path. Logic, which often fails in this application, tells us that when sailing into the rough the intelligent thing to do is tack away.

[Tor]

Looking at the excerpt and the review thereof, I see the review expressing skepticism for neuroscientific diffrences in general, but some level of optimism for the quality of the book based on the excerpt. In Gender Born, Gender Made Diane Ehrensaft talks about internal gender and external characteristics being orthogonal to each other, even if they almost always match up in a "normal" manner. There also is quite clearly a continuum in some form for internal gender.

I have also seen online a study which looked at the amount of testosterone typical in development of male fetuses as compared to the amount needed to tip the balance. They found that only a fairly small hormonal change was needed to tip development - about 2 to 1 rather than 100 to 1 that they had thought they might find. I've lost track of the study to check it again.

Taken together, I suspect that what we are seeing is two part. First: attitudes are (perhaps too slowly) shifting to be more tolerant of diversity of this sort. A good thing, of course. Second (perhaps more educated guessing): xenoestrogens (in particular) are found in quite a lot of things that didn't exist or were just starting to show up a century ago. Quite a few of these are known to be able to cross the barrier to a developing fetus. Being as research shows that hormone balance during development does have an effect on the likelihood of a child becoming transgender, it seems likely that we would see effects to a lesser degree, and I would argue that a number of cases where this may be the case have been mentioned on this forum.

To be sure not all cases of pink boys, tomboys, transgender folk, etc. are caused by hormone lookalikes - quite possibly not even most. I still suspect that such may be something of a factor in at least a substantial portion of cases - the "straw that breaks the camel's back" is a metaphor I think of often when looking at complex situations like this.

Looking at this, and the thread that spawned it, this subject may deserve its own thread - sorry for the derailment if it does.

[skirtilator]

@BobM

I guess that is all debunked by Cordelia Fine.

http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html

Really? Not so much: http://www.epjournal.net/blog/2010/09/a-fine-book/

It is all debunked refers to the general assertion.

He hadn't even read the book. It basically say that there are too many variables involved.

[Sinned]

Well guys, I'm back, just! After a 4 hour flight that landed at 2 am, we are just a bit tired!

crfrnd, I had a very good childhood, with few traumas. I lost the sight in my right eye due to an accident at age 10 but aside from that I had a lot of freedom and very enlightened parents. MOH had parents that were very straight laced and didn't have the enlightened attitudes to sex and son on that my parents had. Maybe that's had a significant impact on her and that's a part of her antagonistic slant.

The holiday was good with temperatures in the high 30s and we are significantly browner than we were before ( in my daughter's case she looks like a berry ). The aquapark was near the beach and not near any shops or such so we never left the park ( annoyed about this as I do like to have some activity during the vacation ). The troubles had started mainly in Cairo but were rippling outward and a lot of the excursions into the desert weren't available. The park was only running at 20% capacity so we had a large pool more or less to ourselves. Fantastic.

Anyway I didn't take any skirts with me which I regretted but more of that in a mo. I did take a black and a blue sarong. The blue one I wore ankle length on day 2 for a day and there was no objection to that. On day 3 I folded the sarong in half lengthwise and wore it as a wrapped around skirt tucked in a the waistband. This brought the comment "You've definitely turned." It was not a complement! On day 4 she mentioned about putting my "skirt" on and I said, "Short or long it's a man's sarong." From then on during the day I wore the sarong with bathing gear under. On the evening I wore shorts or trousers for the more formal evening meals ( I have never wanted to wear a skirt full time, just to have it as an addition to my wardrobe to wear as and when my fancy takes me ). During the remainder of the holiday there was only one other comment about her wearing a "skirt" to match mine ( she had brought along a sarong as well which she wore tide at armpit level ). The black one I wore in the second week. So in the whole fortnight there were no riots, I wasn't jeered at or ridiculed, there were no fights about my attire in fact nothing happened at all! I talked and laughed with others and the staff and all was normal. There wasn't another male wearing a sarong like me and I felt unique and good. So on the whole I feel a lot more relaxed but I am not sure what MOh still thinks. I'm hoping that her attitude may have relaxed a little but time will tell.

It's good to go to sunnier climes but it's even better to be home even though it's in the mid-teens, but home is home and all the better for the experience.

Dennis

[BobM]

I while back I posted this:

A few years ago the U.S. government spent a lot of money on an academic study which shockingly concluded that men and women are different! Really? Who would have thought?

The wonder is not that we manage to communicate as well as we do, but that we communicate at all. Male and female brains are wired very differently. So differently that things men see as obvious and undeniable are nothing of the sort to women. Men tend to be empirical in most things, but women are more emotive. That is one reason arguing mere facts is frequently unproductive. Arguments couched in terms prevalent in the female universe are much more likely to produce satisfactory results than hammering facts. In other words, you have to get inside her head, not just bounce words off of it.

To which Skirtilator replied:

Postby skirtilator » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:44 pm
@BobM

I guess that is all debunked by Cordelia Fine.

http://www.cordeliafine.com/delusions_of_gender.html

Now we have this from the National Academy of Sciences:

A pioneering study has shown for the first time that the brains of men and women are wired up differently which could explain some of the stereotypical differences in male and female behaviour, scientists have said.

Researchers found that many of the connections in a typical male brain run between the front and the back of the same side of the brain, whereas in women the connections are more likely to run from side to side between the left and right hemispheres of the brain.

This difference in the way the nerve connections in the brain are “hardwired” occurs during adolescence when many of the secondary sexual characteristics such as facial hair in men and breasts in women develop under the influence of sex hormones, the study found.

The researchers believe the physical differences between the two sexes in the way the brain is hardwired could play an important role in understanding why men are in general better at spatial tasks involving muscle control while women are better at verbal tasks involving memory and intuition.

Psychological testing has consistently indicated a significant difference between the sexes in the ability to perform various mental tasks, with men outperforming women in some tests and women outperforming men in others. Now there seems to be a physical explanation, scientists said.

“These maps show us a stark difference - and complementarity - in the architecture of the human brain that helps to provide a potential neural basis as to why men excel at certain tasks, and women at others,” said Ragini Verma, professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia.

“What we've identified is that, when looked at in groups, there are connections in the brain that are hardwired differently in men and women. Functional tests have already shown than when they carry out certain tasks, men and women engage different parts of the brain,” Professor Verma said.

The research was carried out on 949 individuals - 521 females and 428 males - aged between 8 and 22. The brain differences between the sexes only became apparent after adolescence, the study found.

A special brain-scanning technique called diffusion tensor imaging, which can measure the flow of water along a nerve pathway, established the level of connectivity between nearly 100 regions of the brain, creating a neural map of the brain called the “connectome”, Professor Verma said.

“It tells you whether one region of the brain is physically connected to another part of the brain and you can get significant differences between two populations,” Professor Verma said.

“In women most of the connections go between left and right across the two hemispheres while in men most of the connections go between the front and the back of the brain,” she said.

Because the female connections link the left hemisphere, which is associated with logical thinking, with the right, which is linked with intuition, this could help to explain why women tend to do better than men at intuitive tasks, she added.

“Intuition is thinking without thinking. It's what people call gut feelings. Women tend to be better than men at these kinds of skill which are linked with being good mothers,” Professor Verma said.

Many previous psychological studies have revealed significant differences between the sexes in the ability to perform various cognitive tests.

Men tend to outperform women involving spatial tasks and motor skills - such as map reading - while women tend to better in memory tests, such as remembering words and faces, and social cognition tests, which try to measure empathy and “emotional intelligence”.

A separate study published last month found that the genes expressed in the human brain did so differently in men and women. Post-mortem tests on the brain and spinal cord of 100 individuals showed significant genetic differences between the sexes, which could account for the observed gender differences in neurological disorders, such as autism, according to scientists from University College London.

For instance, one theory of autism, which is affects about five times as many boys as girls, is that it is a manifestation of the “extreme male brain”, which is denoted by a failure to be able to show empathy towards others.

The latest study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, showed that the differences in the male and female “connectomes” develop during at the same age of onset of the gender differences seen in psychological tests.

The only part of the brain where right-left connectivity was greater in men than in women was in the cerebellum, an evolutionary ancient part of the brain that is linked with motor control.

“It's quite striking how complementary the brains of women and men really are,” said Rubin Gur of Pennsylvania University, a co-author of the study.

“Detailed connectome maps of the brain will not only help us better understand the differences between how men and women think, but it will also give us more insight into the roots of neurological disorders, which are often sex related,” Dr Gur said.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 78248.html

So then, why do so many men still expect the male viewpoint to batter down the female view?