Dress Code Problems

[Silhouette Legs]

Hi new member first post. Sorry to hear about the problems you encountered Davy.

As regards the subject of dress codes if its OK I'd like to discuss the different ramifications for men wearing skirts to work in the USA vs. UK.

If my understanding of this is correct then an American man has the legal right to wear a skirt to work without fear of disciplinary action whereas a British man doesn't.

Here in the UK management have sacked many men over the years for wearing skirts to work. The employers know they can get away with it because more often than not the courts will side with them.

As far as the judges are concerned the employer's argument that gender based dress codes should mirror social norms will always trump any equal opps reasoning put forward by the victim.

There was even a case of a woman who was fired in recent times for daring to wear trousers to work. The employer's feeble excuse that they had a similar policy in place for males, ie. that men weren't allowed to wear skirts, was all the judge needed to let them off the hook.

It's a really awful situation here. If this kind of discrimination happened in most other situations they simply wouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

Stevie could you elaborate on your encounter with the Scottish police please? I've yet to begin wearing skirts myself but the police here on Merseyside, just like in most other places, are known for being bullies. The prospect of a potential run in with them has been crossing my mind somewhat of late should I choose to take the plunge and liberate my fashion options. Not that there's anything illegal about wearing a skirt but that sure wouldn't stop them from giving you an hard time if they decided they didn't like the look of your face (or your unbifurcated garment).

[crfriend]

If my understanding of this is correct then an American man has the legal right to wear a skirt to work without fear of disciplinary action whereas a British man doesn't.

This, for US citizens, is highly variable depending on local culture and jurisdiction. There are parts of the country, mainly in east- and west- coast cities (althuogh Ohio seems to be a bit of a hotbed for male skirting) where nobody bats an eyelash based on what you wear (unless it's really objectionable or ridiculous), and there are parts of the country where getting a millimeter out of line can get you a physical beating.

In the US, most jobs now are "at will" meaning that employment can be terminated at pretty much any time with -- or without -- reason. That make it dangerous to rock the boat. There are "protected classes" which have the benefit of anti-discrimination laws, but your typical bloke doesn't fall into any of those. I suspect it'd be unusual to get sacked for being out of conventional uniform, at least in the more progressive places, but certainly permissible under the legal framework -- and would usually take the guise of something else (e.g. "insubordination" &c.).

[Big and Bashful]

I have now worn denim skirts in many places in Scotland, no-one comments at all. I have worn them in Sheffield, on the train, in service stations, quite a few other places, again, no comments at all. my kilt gets many more comments, however none have been negative, as long as I don't mind people asking what I wear under it (a common question), or what tartan it is (nearly as common).

[Zorba]

There are an increasing number of localities who have made "gender expression" a protected class. California is one of them.

With that said, such laws shouldn't be needed, but the unethical can be found everywhere...

As for "Social Norms" - PAH!

[Sinned]

There are some organisations that are more enlightened about the Equality Act 2010 which brought together most of the equalisations for sex, race, gender etc but somethings such as gay marriage and gender expression of clothing aren't covered. The most important document is your contract of employment and what it says about dress code. I am employed by one retail organisation which has a section which specifies a black skirt or trousers but doesn't define which sex can wear which. So theoretically I could wear a black skirt to work but I wouldn't necessarily try it. Not sure if they could sack me for it but since I am on a zero hour contract I suppose that they wouldn't be obliged to give me any hours.

Dennis

[crfriend]

There are an increasing number of localities who have made "gender expression" a protected class. California is one of them.

The core problem with that for me is that my skirt-wearing has precisely zero to do with "gender expression", nor do I have any of the "other" traits that would confer protection. Face it, I'm a middle-aged white bloke -- disenfranchised enough that everything I do has to be based on reputation, competence, and raw performance.

As for "Social Norms" - PAH!

I rather like that.

[STEVIE]

Hi S.L.
Welcome to the cafe.
My encounter with the "boys in blue" was a long time ago and in a different age. To be fair to them, they had received a complaint about the way I was attired from a "concerned" citizen and had to "talk" to me on that very subject. I was basically advised to vacate the area after checks were made that I was not a wanted criminal.
You're take on the working situation in the U.K. isn't quite right, it rather depends on your employer and the contract your under. Please read my posts in personal stories, dress down days.
As an aside, I am currently looking at an amazing sunset.
Sorry to digress, I spend more working time skirted than trousered at the moment. That is partially due to my employer being commited to the whole diversity ethic. However, my bosses also recognise that it doesn't set me apart and that I'm more productive now than I've ever been in the past. That said, I worked for about 30 years in the retail industry and I doubt I would have had the same choices as I do now.
There are exceptions, a sighting in the wild post reported a skirted guy working for a famous U.K. electronics retailer.
Apart from work, the positive reactions I have received to going publicly skirted have far outweighed the negatives. If you haven't already, try it and tell us how it goes.
Sinned, I sympathise, zero hour contracts must be about the worst things in employment to hit our shores in recent years.
At times like this they are nothing less than "carte blanche" for the employer to dictate to their dear excuses, for a heart's content.
Steve.

[Jean-Luc]

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[Jean-Luc]

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[allen476]

If my understanding of this is correct then an American man has the legal right to wear a skirt to work without fear of disciplinary action whereas a British man doesn't.

Not necessarily...

While yes it is true that unless the employee handbook specifically states otherwise, a male could wear a skirt to work. In real life, most states are employment-at-will, meaning that they can fire you for anything whenever they want. So if your boss is not impressed by your skirt wearing, they can fire you for simply being 1 minute late or not performing well enough.

They can get rid of you for it and not cite it in your official termination notice.

Many employers though will tolerate it as long as it doesn't cause a disruption in the work environment. Of all of the places I have worked, I would have only been comfortable in one place to do so. The rest run the gambit of not allowed due to safety reasons to knowing that it would have caused a disruption.

[Lawrence de Grande]

One of the waitresses at a restaurant I worked at knew I like to wear dresses and wanted to see me in one so I went there for dinner one evening. As my luck would have it, one of the owners brought his family in for dinner that night. I was politely asked to refrain from doing it again on the grounds that; "We run a family restaurant here, not a sideshow". I guess he thought that was a legit reason to discriminate against me but I was not impressed. Nor was I impressed when the other owner prohibited me from using the designated smoking area because I smoked little cigars instead of cigarettes. I was eventually fired for a bad work attitude even though I was the hardest worker in the kitchen. Such is life in the American workplace. Any excuse is fine as long as they can cover it up.

[allen476]

One of the waitresses at a restaurant I worked at knew I like to wear dresses and wanted to see me in one so I went there for dinner one evening. As my luck would have it, one of the owners brought his family in for dinner that night. I was politely asked to refrain from doing it again on the grounds that; "We run a family restaurant here, not a sideshow". I guess he thought that was a legit reason to discriminate against me but I was not impressed. Nor was I impressed when the other owner prohibited me from using the designated smoking area because I smoked little cigars instead of cigarettes. I was eventually fired for a bad work attitude even though I was the hardest worker in the kitchen. Such is life in the American workplace. Any excuse is fine as long as they can cover it up.

You should have met her someplace else. I used to work at a restaurant while in college. If my co-worker wanted to see me in full regalia, I would have told her to meet me at a park or Starbucks. The last place I would have wanted to be on a day off was there.

The only employer I would have been comfortable going to work in a skirt would have been a CSR gig 3 years ago. I know that the site director would have been OK with it as well as my supervisors going up the chain as well. The only problem would have been 2 male colleagues that were openly anti-anything-out-of-the-normal. They confronted one co-worker because he wore a pink shirt once. Does that tell you anything?

[STEVIE]

Any employer can pretty much fire anyone for anything regardless of any safeguards.
The problem is to try to prove that their reasons were otherwise than stated.
Steve.

[pleated]

The only problem would have been 2 male colleagues that were openly anti-anything-out-of-the-normal. They confronted one co-worker because he wore a pink shirt once. Does that tell you anything?

It tells me those two should get out more often!
Going through Dublin city centre every workday I usually see men and boys wearing t-shirts, polo shirts and fleece jackets of different shades of red - pink, cerise, coral etc. It is now normal for males to wear these colours.

[Silhouette Legs]

Yeah disenfranchised. That's a great word and sums up exactly how I feel. I've finally woken up to these additional restrictions society place on men. Women get an easy ride in comparison and its all in the name of some phony kind of machoism. Its not just fashion but socially too. I want to live in a world where if my son gets upset, or scared, he can feel free to cry or hug his best friend without anyone trying to put a label on him. Just like his sister can.

I always knew women had a greater fashion choice than men but up until last December (when I began wearing tights) I'd just blindly accepted it. Previously, although I always thought they looked comfortable, I had no burning desire to wear skirts but the tights really helped open my eyes to a lot of inequalities and I decided I wanted to fight back.

I could well find that I still prefer wearing pants and shorts but that's irrelevant as to me, at least at this stage, its largely political and about freedom of choice and wanting to know whether this harmless garment will be a suitable and comfortable item for me to wear. As at the moment myself and the vast majority of men in the western world have not got a clue either way and that we should be afforded.

Equality. God knows our governments bang on about the word enough yet we still have no proper workplace protection. And who knows I could end up loving them and throwing all my pants away just like that advert (UK) "Every day can be a skirt day" with Veet wax strips.

I'm 6' 3" tall, 15 stone heavy and without wanting to sound too big headed could probably hold my own in a brawl against more than half the men my own age. I therefore came to the conclusion that I no longer needed a restrictive social dress code in order to prove my toughness. In April, after just four months, I began wearing my tights openly with shorts and found it really easy. Pretty similar to what everyone claims about skirting. I feel skirts, although arguably a bit more hardcore, are going to be the next logical step in my quest to expand my freedoms.

Before he retired my dad used to work in a similar organisation to mine but his was known for being generally a lot more stricter on their staff than where I work. He reckons there was a man sacked from one of their offices about ten years ago for coming in wearing a skirt. I also recall hearing about a postman sacked in 1998 for protesting (Swedish style) about being unable to wear shorts. Although judging by all the posties this summer his dismissal may not have been in vein because they're all wearing them now.

I'm fortunate enough to work in an office were people are generally pretty relaxed about what can be worn. I usually wear t-shirt and trainers which is a bit of a luxury compared to others elsewhere. A couple of weeks ago we did get a couple of idiot managers who seemingy have no problems with skirted women bearing their legs in the baking heat but were so outraged by the sight of men coming to work in shorts they thought they'd cause trouble and make a few complaints. Thankfully these numpties were rightfully shot down by HR.

I guess I'll have to take a look at my contract of employment. I'm willing to wear skirts in the open but I doubt I'd risk wearing one to work. However I would like to wear my tights to work one day. We have an official dress down day once a month for charity so I guess that would be the best time to do so. It's a bit of a get out clause I suppose and I'm pretty sure our guidance states that anyone found "inappropriately" dressed will be given the opportunity to go home and change in their own time before any action is taken.