The flying Edsel

[Sarongman]

I know this is VERY off topic but I just had to get this off my chest--- Lockheed Martin's F35 is turning into a huge money pit, and is falling far short of the hype that sucked our former Prime Minister into signing us up for billions that have now got close to 10 times that! The thing is slow, unwieldy, has a touch screen cockpit control---if the software crashes, so does the plane. We've bought Super Hornets as a stopgap, but have doubled our purchase of S,Hs. on the suspicion that the plane will not go ahead at all. Canada is also having second thoughts. What a huge waste, and almost a con job.

[Sinned]

Srngmn,

I agree and hope that Britain doesn't buy any of the F35 lemons. It appears that no-one else is interested, even the Americans seem to be backing off. We would have been better developing the Harrier G series. Admittedly, it was getting a bit long in the tooth but as a niche fighter/bomber it surely still had a role. Plus we still had the control over the technology. The Eurofighter Tornado from all respects is a worthy competitor to the F15/F18 series although it has been very expensive to develop and one wonders if any joint collaboration of future aircraft will continue. France pulled out of the first cut Eurofighter collaboration as their demands for control, design and manufacture of the aircraft was considered too much.

[janrok]

Another worthy competitor is the Saab Gripen. The Canadians are leaning towards this option. Much cheaper to buy, maintain and use.

Talking about the Edsel, how about starting a topic on the Boeing 787? I check the Boeing/Aviation section of the Seattle Times every day and the Dreamliner has become a true nightmare for Boeing and those Airliners already flying the crippled bird. I also post comments on the Seattle Times site.
Other sites are www.flightglobal.com and www.aviationweek.com, also with F35 news.

Jan

[Sarongman]

The Dassault Rafale was another viable option, considering our good decade and a bit with the Mirage in the 60s. We, now, seem to be tied too closely to American influence, to our own detriment. Europe has equal and, dare I say it, sometimes superior technology and skills. I won't keep going, I might by now have an ASIS and a CIA dossier on me. I won't say anything about Mossad in case I'm found hanged in a suicide proof cell in Israel!

janrok, I have heard of the woes of Boeing with the "Nightmareliner". Interesting thought, are we getting too far ahead of ourselves with technology? Militarily maybe, we should push the envelope, but as for civilian use, bigger is not always better and, surely reliability and comfort comes before bells ans whistles.

[crfriend]

The Dassault Rafale was another viable option, considering our good decade and a bit with the Mirage in the 60s.

Europe has always acuitted itself well with military technology, but the sad fact is that in the modern world these systems cost vast sums to develop and produce -- all with the hopeful intent of never having to use them in anger. In this regard, I can sympathise with the pacifists and bean-counters who say that it's not worth it. Unfortunately, however, the world is getting to be a more dangerous place with each passing day as we slip back into a new Dark Age, and somebody needs to keep on top of the technology. I am a pragmatist, so I'll take the "side" of the "best" technical argument in the matter, and sometimes that comes out irrespective to cost/price!

janrok, I have heard of the woes of Boeing with the "Nightmareliner". Interesting thought, are we getting too far ahead of ourselves with technology? Militarily maybe, we should push the envelope, but as for civilian use, bigger is not always better and, surely reliability and comfort comes before bells ans whistles.

Comfort went the way of the dinosaur in the 1980s when seat-pitches were first allowed to be shorter than a decent percentage of folks' femur lengths; too, with the abandonment of proper pressurisation of the airframe commercial flight is now dangerous for a fair percentage of the population. My main hope for the all-composite 787 was that maybe -- just maybe -- the airlines would return to a 5000' ASL cabin pressure instead of the 9+ thousand one they seem to use today (which is why I had to abandon flight as a transport technique in 2000; barotrauma is not comfortable).

I know that the 787 is power-hungry, but most of the problems seem to have happened on the tarmac (with one spectacular exception) where ground power would have been readily available. I'm not particularly enamoured of lithium-ion technology as it's well known to suffer from thermal-runaway issues; it's interesting that the manufacturers (and this includes Airbus, by the way) were able to convince the various safety agencies that these things are safe for air transport. I recall several years ago I needed a replacement lithium battery (a non-rechargeable one) for a computer of mine and it arrived with a whacking great sticker on the package stating that the box was NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES be flown on a passenger-carrying aircraft -- this for something the size of three US quarters stacked atop one another.

[janrok]

In the meantime Airbus have, in view of the 787 Li-Ion troubles, ditched the Li-Ions and will install good old NiCad's in their new A350XWB.
Within 10 days in January the 787 suffered from:
A fuel leak in engine number two-----a fuel leak in the left wing-----a battery on fire on the tarmac at Boston Logan-----a battery warning and smoke at 33000 feet cruising alt., urging the captain to make an emergency landing-----an oil leak in an engine-----a false brake-malfunction alert from the computer-----a spiderweb-crack in a cockpit window.

Jan.

[Jim]

Why all the maligning of the Edsel? It was a fairly decent car, I understand, but just went out of fashion. Not nearly the lemon these absurd weapons are.

[janrok]

The Edsel was an elegant car but it's technics were outmoded, the specific fuel consumption too high and it was not very reliable.

As for the F35: the latest news is that the US grounds all the F35 due to a crack in a fan blade. Development cost in the meantime have doubled.
The Dutch government committed to buy a test F35 but are reluctant to go any further with this bird.

Read the article on www.flightglobal.com.

Jan.

[Sarongman]

these absurd weapons

Jim, as a civilised person, I agree that weapons "of mass destruction" are absurd, and almost a sin. It is also well known, that returned servicemen are the most anti war, for the practical reason that they have "been through it"; some are badly scarred emotionally from that experience. The taking of a human life is an incredible evil, and I am glad that I haven't had to face that decision, although, if I had to protect my own' kith and kin' I would not hesitate to neutralise that threat, and if that meant kill or be killed, so be it! so I could not put myself out as a consciensious objector. While rogue states like North Korea and Iran, plus small fanatical groups continue to exist, these technologies must continue to be pushed forward.

Edit---In retrospect, we haven't progressed socially since our Neolithic ancestors built hill forts to protect themselves, and what they held dear. What has progressed (rapidly in the past century) is the means to wage war. This, however, is still necessary until we, as a species, rise above the squalid ape brain that sees war as a necessary way to solve, seemingly, intractable disagreements.

[Jack Williams]

Just to digress, the other day I met a guy stopped at the traffic lights in his top down Edsel convertable.
A REAL Classic Car.

[Jack Williams]

Actually, I bounded up to him and said something like "This has to be a rare car, because everybody hated them and nobody bought them". He said: "That's right!".

Lovely restoration job. Factory new.

[crfriend]

Just to digress, the other day I met a guy stopped at the traffic lights in his top down Edsel convertable.
A REAL Classic Car.

Nice!

I recall being stunned one day when I visited my local "establishment" and there were *two* of them parked side-by-side. Now, before anybody gets any wise ideas, this was on my way in so double-vision was not to blame.