Vogue magazine: daring pics

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Juan
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Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Juan »

Did you check out the latest issue of Vogue Italia? Arguably the more "artsy" and less commercial of all the international editions of the magazine, it's frequently provocative and sometimes shocking. At first, I was hesitant about posting this pics here, since I didn't want to polemyze about wether "is that cross-dressing or not" or to renew the "what do we mean by girly" controversy.

Anyways, I think that the more people are exposed to uconventional fashions, and the more males wearing garments traditionally considered "feminine" are not presented as "ridiculous" or "pathetic", but rather in an aesthetic context, the faster other unconventional garments will be accepted for men. Even more so if they're featured in the world's "top fashion magazine".

Besides, I thought many of you out there might also want to enjoy them.

In his chaotic "Performance" Steven Meisel photographs several models styled by Karl Templer, with (wonderful!) makeup by Pat McGrath. He presents these youngsters in a impoverished "Dickens-like" mood. Some of the males are unashamedly attired in garments which are uncommon in a gentleman's closet. Once again, there's no intention of setting a "trend" here. I'm sure Meisel is aware that most men wouldn't actually dress like that in public (well,... I might)

Is the context masculine enough? I'm leaving that for you to decide.
performance8.jpg
performance6.jpg
The cover can be seen at: http://www.style.it/cont/vogue/home-vogue.asp (I suppose the complete contents can be seen on-line if you register)
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Since1982 »

Masculine enough for what, the new rendition of "Alice in Wonderland" or "The Wiz"? That outfit looks a lot like Michael Jackson's costume in "The Wiz" where he played the Scarecrow.

It sure would be nice for some top designer to come out with Men's skirts or unbifurcated clothes that make a man look like a man instead of some strange visitor from another planet.

He looks like he might be in the next science fiction movie. :blue:
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Bob »

I look at pictures like these as art, not an example of something we might use to clothe our bods. Is it good art? I might answer that question by asking: is it well executed, is it visually appealing, does it connect with or create strong emotions in the viewer, does it spur on discussion?

Apparently, these pictures have spurred on discussion. I think that they would have a hard time being viewed as "masculine enough" because in Western culture, men are not supposed to be objectified --- that's become a role solely for women. But here are these men, who have been turned into a piece of art. All our cultural training tells us that incarnation in artwork is for women only, not men --- that's ultimately why so few boys study ballet. So when we see this picture, we automatically see it as androgynous or girly or effeminate or something, simply because it is beautiful.

When we pick it apart, we can see many aspects that we might consider feminine --- long hair, gloves, makeup, etc. Again, I think it's important why we consider these things feminine, and I think the answer is the same --- they're purpose is primarily to be visually appealing, they're not "practical." Making men beautiful definitely pushes some gender buttons in our society. But it also gets to the heart of why some of the men here are interested in (for example) wearing skirts?

Shouldn't men be allowed to look and feel beautiful?
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Dawn »

Juan,

Look at the neckline in the b&w picture, it is definetly a girl's neckline & if it were in color the clevage would stand out.

These are definetly girl fashion and used as attention getters, following the tradition of Dianne VonFurstenberg.

On a party night I might consider it, but manly, no way.

Dawn
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

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Since1982: I don't who the designer is. My guess is that Mr. Templer must have put together pieces by different designers for this "performance". Taken by themselves, each item must look like your regular piece of clothing, and most probably some were not even originally intended for boys to wear (the petticoats, for example). As always, he must have had to make several adjustments to fit the model's bodies. It is the way he put them together what makes them fit into a particular character (from "Wiz"? from "Alice"? a "visitor from another planet"?... who knows!). That kind of photographs, published by an "avant-garde" fashion magazine, often consulted by fashion professionals, will undoubtedly contribute to broadening people's minds. At least I think so.
Bob wrote:I look at pictures like these as art, not an example of something we might use to clothe our bods. Is it good art? I might answer that question by asking: is it well executed, is it visually appealing, does it connect with or create strong emotions in the viewer, does it spur on discussion?
Very well put, Bob. I have nothing else to add. I also agree with what you said about "incarnation in artwork" being, in our society, traditionally "for women only, not men --- that's ultimately why so few boys study ballet"... I hadn't thought about that, but I agree on that as well!
Bob wrote:But it also gets to the heart of why some of the men here are interested in (for example) wearing skirts?
Tere is a "practical" aspect in skirt-wearing for men (freedom of movement, no pressure around the crotch, etc), but there is also, at least for some members of the café, an "aesthetic" aspect. Not all of us are "bravehearts". Some of us simply like the way we look when we wear them. We even pair them with high heels! What on earth can be "practical" about wearing high heels! We certainly do not try to "look like a girl", but, as you put it, to look and/or feel "visually appealing"
Dawn wrote:Look at the neckline in the b&w picture, it is definetly a girl's neckline & if it were in color the clevage would stand out.
Dawn: I'm not sure, maybe you're right: no less than 12 models are credited for these sessions. A few of them are females. The same model (in a broken crinoline, if you observe carefully) appears a couple times. He looks like an XY to me...
Dawn wrote:These are definetly girl fashion and used as attention getters, following the tradition of Dianne VonFurstenberg.

On a party night I might consider it, but manly, no way.
Well, at least they did get my attention. :D You make me wonder... "what do we mean by manly"? We could start a new thread! :lol: Anyways... I'm not sure if that's an adjective I'd freely apply to myself!

As for Furstenberg, I don't think she was more of an attention-getter than any other fashion designer... Think about Westwood!

Take care,

Juan
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Dawn »

Juan,

As to defining "manly" It's like a lot of things, I can't tell you, but I know it when I see it. Probably different for every individual and changes substantially by country.
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by jamie001 »

I believe that "manly" is a look that has been defined by society to be practical and utilitarian rather than beautiful. Going back in time fifty years, women only wore skirts and always dressed in a style that was considered "ladylike" and very feminine by society. As women's fashion progressed, women started wearing pants, neckties, baseball caps, men's shirts rather than blouses, and the trend continued. I believe that the difference in attitudes between men and women is that women were not taught as children that "masculine" is inferior. On the other hand, young boys were taught that "feminine" is inferior and that they are not to display any feminine characteristics including wearing any article of clothing that a female would wear. If you read any women's magazine, you will inevitably find articles about incorporating the "boyfriend look" into their otherwise feminine wardrobe. You never see any articles in GQ Magazine about incorporating feminine or the "girlfriend look" into an otherwise masculine wardrobe/appearance because it would be considered as an expression of inferiority and weakness. This is very unfortunate, but it is reality. Most men have an innate fear of deviating from the herd mentality and therefore they would never wear anything feminine. There blood pressure even goes up when they are asked to hold their wife's purse.

I believe that both men and women need to accept the concept that both masculine and feminine are acceptable looks for both genders. Women have already embraced this simple concept and have greatly increased their fashion choices. Women also don't need to change or attempt to feminize the clothing that they are wearing. They simply call it what it really is "Boyfriend's clothing". It is now time for men to do the same. Don't worry if it is normally considered "feminine". We call do the same and call it "girlfriend's clothing" If you like to garment, shoes, or other accessories including makeup, then just wear it. That is the only way to affect change.

Regards,

Jamie :D
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Since1982 »

After a second look, I agree that the black and white pictured model is a female. Her mammary extrusions are obvious enough to anyone who's looking for them. I think calling these models male is a case of hopeful mis-identification. Being female makes them not "daring" at all, but normal in the commonplace world of extreme female fashions. :hide:
Juan said: Since1982: I don't who the designer is. My guess is that Mr. Templer must have put together pieces by different designers for this "performance". Taken by themselves, each item must look like your regular piece of clothing, and most probably some were not even originally intended for boys to wear (the petticoats, for example). As always, he must have had to make several adjustments to fit the model's bodies. It is the way he put them together what makes them fit into a particular character (from "Wiz"? from "Alice"? a "visitor from another planet"?... who knows!). That kind of photographs, published by an "avant-garde" fashion magazine, often consulted by fashion professionals, will undoubtedly contribute to broadening people's minds. At least I think so.
Is this supposed to be a quote by me? If so, it's not.
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by jamie001 »

In addition to the points that I made in my previous post, I look forward to the day when I can walk into any department store and see signs over the various areas of the departments that say "Pants", "Skirts", "Shoes", "Accessories" with no mention of gender. I doubt that we will be this furtunate during my lifetime. Therefore all that we can do is to live our lives as if this has already happenned. In other words, ignore society's unnecessary concept that clothing has gender and wear the clothing and accessories that you want to wear. This is basically what women already do and there should be no problem because we are not attempting to deceive anyone into believing that we are women. We are simply men that want the same clothing choices that women already have.

Jamie :D

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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Juan »

Since1982: I put your name in bold face, not because I'm quoting you, but because I'm addressing you. I place quotes between quotation marks or highlight them with the "quote" appliance provided. Sorry if that practice can be confusing. After a second (or rather a third) look, I realize you're right. The B&W, is a girl all right. Well, one should acknowledge that in that setting it's easy to be fooled. On the other hand, I should admit that for some reason I enjoy not being able to guess a person's gender at first sight.
jamie001 wrote:women were not taught as children that "masculine" is inferior. On the other hand, young boys were taught that "feminine" is inferior

That's so true, jamie001, as are all your examples. I give another one: oftentimes men are presented in "drag" in humorous numbers, prentending that that, by iself, is funny or ridiculous. Have you ever wondered why? I don't find it funny at all... there's nothing ludicrous or degrading in a man wearing pieces of cloth shaped into garments traditionally worn by females. On the contrary: it can be more creative and stylish than our boring "male" costumes. And no, it's not about "decieving" or "prentending" to be what we are not.

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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Since1982 »

Juan, I wasn't referring to the bold face, I was referring to the colon which infers a quote. I'm just assuming your English is about as good as my spanish which I make lots of mistakes in, but do speak semi-fluently. Had you typed Since 1982 and a comma, I'd have not said anything. By the way, I didn't have a problem with anything you've said. I just thought you were quoting me. Now I understand you weren't. :D
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Grok »

jamie001 wrote: I believe that the difference in attitudes between men and women is that women were not taught as children that "masculine" is inferior. On the other hand, young boys were taught that "feminine" is inferior and that they are not to display any feminine characteristics

Jamie :D
I mulled this over, and realized that I outgrew the conditioning as I matured. I ended up liking women-in general-as people, and came to think of them as individuals rather than as another (lower) class.
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Since1982 »

Juan said: I should admit that for some reason I enjoy not being able to guess a person's gender at first sight.
I am definitely not in that group, I want to be able to guess genders when I look at people. Otherwise we're back to H.G.Wells' "The Time Machine" where he went so far into the future that there were nothing left but 2 groups of living things, the Morlocks and the Eloi...The Morlocks lived underground and ate Eloi, the Eloi lived above ground and all looked alike in white tunics and shoulder length blond hair and white skin. No one could tell at first sight whether an Eloi was male or female so the Morlock just grabbed whatever one he could and took it below for food. No, I definitely prefer being able to tell which person is male (in a skirt) or female (in pants). :D
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

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Skip: your postings are always interesting and often thought-provoking (although there have been a couple of misunderstandings between us due to my poor command of English punctuation marks) I can infer from them that we do belong to "different groups". And that's not a bad thing. Diversity is not only a fact of life, but also something very enriching.

Before I'm devoured by a Morlock, let me point out that there's always a spot of "Ying" in every "Yang" and vice-versa: some masculine trait can be discovered in the most elegant, feminine, lady; some feminine touch even in the most tough, "macho" man. Some of us simply enjoy that ambiguity to a greater extent. A girly girl who can fix her own car, drive a large truck, or who loves to wear tank-boots with her frills, is something that I find overwhelmingly attractive. And I can tell from my own experience that most women are indeed drawn to a man who’s not ashamed of showing his “feminine side”.

From an aesthetic point of view, I believe that Beauty, in order to attain its utmost degree, needs to have an even larger amount of that opposite component (more than -let’s call it- “normal” life). And I’m probably not alone in believing that. Some think that Leonardo’s “Mona Lisa”, for example, was actually a self-portrait. Comparative skull-structure measurements made both in the painting and in his renowned red-charcoal self-portrait seem to reinforce the hypothesis.
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Re: Vogue magazine: daring pics

Post by Since1982 »

A girly girl who can fix her own car, drive a large truck, or who loves to wear tank-boots with her frills, is something that I find overwhelmingly attractive.
Then you'd love the recent Joe Pesci movie, "My Cousin Vinny", co-starring Marisa Tomei, who played a very feminine fiancee who "also" was a fully trained mechanic with ALL the Vehicle mechanic's skills.

By the way, Juan, I think you've painted me with the wrong brush. I don't dislike you or disagree with your right to like or wear what you will. To each his own, like the old lady that french-kissed the cow.(There's a mental picture for you, slurp slurp.) THIS, is a very freestyle site. All sites aren't this way. And they all have their places, even X marks the spot, although I wouldn't join there as I'm not a kilt lover. :alien:
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