Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
I once had a friend nearby who was doing a M2F transition. She lived with some others in the same process and hosted a support group for transvestites and transexuals and everything in between. I attended some of her parties (which were great fun) with other cis friends and got to know and interact with many.
Here's the thing. I instinctively treat people who are very femme a certain way. Not going to list the things that are different, because they are many and mostly trivial, but they are interesting. For example, out with a male friend who is dressed very femme I would be likely to open the door for him (especially if his outfit meant that it would be more convenient), even if he wasn't transitioning or planning to. I'd probably also ask him if he wanted more punch if we were chatting at a recepetion, or something, especially if he was in high heels.
I myself have experienced being dropped from the list of who-to-ask for help moving furniture, because I was wearing a skirt.
So, two questions pop up:
1. Have you experienced this yourself, either as recipient or giver of different treatment?
2. Would you guys that dress quite femme at times mind if someone treated you a bit more like females in ordinary interactions like I've described?
Here's the thing. I instinctively treat people who are very femme a certain way. Not going to list the things that are different, because they are many and mostly trivial, but they are interesting. For example, out with a male friend who is dressed very femme I would be likely to open the door for him (especially if his outfit meant that it would be more convenient), even if he wasn't transitioning or planning to. I'd probably also ask him if he wanted more punch if we were chatting at a recepetion, or something, especially if he was in high heels.
I myself have experienced being dropped from the list of who-to-ask for help moving furniture, because I was wearing a skirt.
So, two questions pop up:
1. Have you experienced this yourself, either as recipient or giver of different treatment?
2. Would you guys that dress quite femme at times mind if someone treated you a bit more like females in ordinary interactions like I've described?
Daryl...
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
I have a couple of clients that I am able to go to their offices skirted. I did not wear wigs or make up or nail polish. . but the outfits were definitely femme including skirts pantyhose and heels. I think I had the seal of approval for my outfits from the cafe because it was the members who helped me refine the outfits. (if you look on the MY many minis blog for December you can see what we all went thru )
I don't feel that I received any special treatment because of the outfits. The might have been something but I would just push it off to common courtesy.
Moving about in these outfits is new to me and a struggle at times I would appreciate any additional courtesy that I may receive. But I don't expect anything other than what would be normal.
I don't feel that I received any special treatment because of the outfits. The might have been something but I would just push it off to common courtesy.
Moving about in these outfits is new to me and a struggle at times I would appreciate any additional courtesy that I may receive. But I don't expect anything other than what would be normal.
Last edited by oldsalt1 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
As someone who does like the more femme type of dressing including hose and heels, fingernails and a little makeup I can tell you that I've not noticed people acting any different around me. Other than of course the odd looks now and then, along with the complements I get occasionally.
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Namaste,
Gordon
Namaste,
Gordon
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
I visited someone who I knew was 'closet' transgender M to F, but 'he' was in male mode. After spending a couple of hours chatting, he asked me if I would like to come back again in a few days and meet 'her' instead. I said I would - and it would be interesting to see if she noticed any differences between the way I treated her and the way I treated him.Daryl wrote:.... 1. Have you experienced this yourself, either as recipient or giver of different treatment?
At the end of the second visit we compared notes and it seems that I treated her exactly the same as him (except for the pronouns). I was very pleased to hear that, but I suspect I am somewhat unusual and most people would have treated them differently.
I frequently get mistaken for a woman - albeit a rather dowdy one - and I don't mind at all; in fact I find it rather pleasant. This was one of the clues that led me to realise that I am on the fringes of being transgender. I find that people definitely do treat me differently when they think I am a woman and it sometimes comes as an unpleasant shock when they treat me like a man.Daryl wrote:2. Would you guys that dress quite femme at times mind if someone treated you a bit more like females in ordinary interactions like I've described?
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
I've been Ma'amed many times over the years when speaking with someone over the phone or with someone who couldn't see me right away and even then sometimes they'd look right at me and say ma'am.
Then a couple years ago I grew a full, but white, beard. There's a little color left around the sides and back of my head but not much. While I hold doors for ladies most all the time and many times for men, especially if they're carrying a bunch of stuff, I generally consider it part of applying social lubricant. Let's play nice with each other so we don't have to do as Gen. Mattis is reported to have said:
I have noticed more so of late, that when in a dress or skirt although not in a kilt, that women and even men hold doors for me. Now, could be a matter of being nice to the old guy, could be a conditioned response to a skirt-wearer, could be a combination of the two, or something as yet unknown. I came to a sudden stop one April morning in 2007 with the shocking realization that I had 'jiggle" but other than a skirt I will generally appear to dress as a male. But I do have some soft and lady-like tops I will sometimes wear, and then there are the dresses once in a while. But I don't do makeup or similar stuff and generally just try to be a guy exercising freedom of choice.
I did "dress like a girl" last Friday: skinny jeans and a tunic but I had some physical labor to do on that trip.
We need more data and a longer term study.....
Then a couple years ago I grew a full, but white, beard. There's a little color left around the sides and back of my head but not much. While I hold doors for ladies most all the time and many times for men, especially if they're carrying a bunch of stuff, I generally consider it part of applying social lubricant. Let's play nice with each other so we don't have to do as Gen. Mattis is reported to have said:
Anyway."Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."
One of the rules Maj. Gen. James Mattis gave his Marines to live by in Iraq, as quoted in Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq (2006) by Thomas E. Ricks; as excerpted in Armed Forces Journal (August 2006)
I have noticed more so of late, that when in a dress or skirt although not in a kilt, that women and even men hold doors for me. Now, could be a matter of being nice to the old guy, could be a conditioned response to a skirt-wearer, could be a combination of the two, or something as yet unknown. I came to a sudden stop one April morning in 2007 with the shocking realization that I had 'jiggle" but other than a skirt I will generally appear to dress as a male. But I do have some soft and lady-like tops I will sometimes wear, and then there are the dresses once in a while. But I don't do makeup or similar stuff and generally just try to be a guy exercising freedom of choice.
I did "dress like a girl" last Friday: skinny jeans and a tunic but I had some physical labor to do on that trip.
We need more data and a longer term study.....
Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Let me remind you that both Nomad and V'ger wanted more data too!Darryl wrote:I've been Ma'amed many times over the years when speaking with someone over the phone or with someone who couldn't see me right away and even then sometimes they'd look right at me and say ma'am.
I have noticed more so of late, that when in a dress or skirt although not in a kilt, that women and even men hold doors for me. Now, could be a matter of being nice to the old guy, could be a conditioned response to a skirt-wearer, could be a combination of the two, or something as yet unknown. I came to a sudden stop one April morning in 2007 with the shocking realization that I had 'jiggle" but other than a skirt I will generally appear to dress as a male. But I do have some soft and lady-like tops I will sometimes wear, and then there are the dresses once in a while. But I don't do makeup or similar stuff and generally just try to be a guy exercising freedom of choice.
I did "dress like a girl" last Friday: skinny jeans and a tunic but I had some physical labor to do on that trip.
We need more data and a longer term study.....
I wear my sunglasses with integral 1.5x reading lenses almost all the time when outdoors. It's just very convenient. For a while a couple of winters ago I used a cane of my own design to steady myself on icy surfaces during winter, having had a couple of very bad slip-and falls and not wanting another. It has a pointy metal tip designed for this one job, otherwise I fold it up and put it away. One day getting off the bus onto an icy sidewalk I put my cane before me and a woman maybe ten years younger than I reached up and took my elbow to help me down. I was surprised as heque but just said "thank you". Once on the street I realised what had happened: she was helping a blind person!
Earlier in skirted life I had young people offering me seats on streetcars and subways. One of my most common colours for shirts back then were varieties of olive, which went very well with my Maple Leaf Tartan kilt. I would also wear olive socks. I finally made the connection. They thought they were offering a seat to a veteran, or at least a member of the armed forces. It happened more often to me around Remembrance Day.
I stopped using the cane and sunglasses simultaneously, and I shrunk out of that kilt so I rarely look military anymore anyway. Once I did those two things I stopped getting much deference or help. What I do still get on the odd occasion is someone offering me a seat, but I think that's just because of my grey hair. We all open doors for each other so often anyway I wouldn't notice if that has changed. Other than being excluded from ad-hoc BFCs (brute force committees), I don't think skirt wearing has had any net effect on public manners except possibly that people will sit beside me more often on a crowded train, and I am sure that's just because I don't "manspread" anymore (because I don't need to anymore).
Daryl...
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
I don't notice any real difference. Then again, I have a VERY strange personality. A lot of people that know me say I'm very masculine in behavior, and yet, also feminine too. I think a lot of it is I'm just full of passion generally. When I speak, I get worked up easily. I'm not afraid to cry, or make a remark about something being pretty... but on the other hand, I tend to cuss like a sailor, and I have a hillbilly slur about me when I get wound up.
People know me as a slack jaw with an extensive vocabulary, a tree hugging, dirt worshiping, moon howling, Appalachian hillbilly, maintenance man who digs classical music along with Led Zeppelin, a Wiccan with a peppering of "Jesus freak" who happens to wear dresses and Gypsy skirts, ironically has never been high, drunk, or unemployed, sleeps with a stuffed bunny, likes home grown tomatoes, wildflowers, reads the Encyclopedia for fun, and writes in cursive.
I don't know if that's masculine or feminine, but one thing is for sure, it's 100% Moon Shadow.
Basically- I just took a hard look at humanity, and decided I wanted to be something else!
People know me as a slack jaw with an extensive vocabulary, a tree hugging, dirt worshiping, moon howling, Appalachian hillbilly, maintenance man who digs classical music along with Led Zeppelin, a Wiccan with a peppering of "Jesus freak" who happens to wear dresses and Gypsy skirts, ironically has never been high, drunk, or unemployed, sleeps with a stuffed bunny, likes home grown tomatoes, wildflowers, reads the Encyclopedia for fun, and writes in cursive.
I don't know if that's masculine or feminine, but one thing is for sure, it's 100% Moon Shadow.
Basically- I just took a hard look at humanity, and decided I wanted to be something else!
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Probably I just got hypersensitive to the issue from reading the post and it is probably just people being "nice" to the 'old guy' even if he's wearing a skirt or a dress.
OTOH, I also occasionally swear like a sailor - indeed, I learned from some of the best, you could even say I've a post-graduate degree (6 years). (1971-1977, USN)
OTOH, I also occasionally swear like a sailor - indeed, I learned from some of the best, you could even say I've a post-graduate degree (6 years). (1971-1977, USN)
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Thank you for your service .Darryl wrote:Probably I just got hypersensitive to the issue from reading the post and it is probably just people being "nice" to the 'old guy' even if he's wearing a skirt or a dress.
OTOH, I also occasionally swear like a sailor - indeed, I learned from some of the best, you could even say I've a post-graduate degree (6 years). (1971-1977, USN)
Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Well, I wear skirts and heels and carry a handbag, yet no one has called me "Miss" or "Ma'am" while out and about. If anyone did, I would pleasantly suggest they get their eyes checked.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Heh heh, that hasn't happened to me yet and likely never will but I think I'd just let it stand and see how long it took the person to realise the mistake, then watch how she tries to deal with it once she has. Take every opportunity to let comedy happen, I say.JeffB1959 wrote:Well, I wear skirts and heels and carry a handbag, yet no one has called me "Miss" or "Ma'am" while out and about. If anyone did, I would pleasantly suggest they get their eyes checked.
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
And if it doesn't happen on its own, then sometimes it's entirely appropriate to "assist it" in happening.Daryl wrote:Take every opportunity to let comedy happen, I say.
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
Absolutely. I am hoping that someone tries to hold my coat for me one day so I can enter it like a doctor entering a surgical gown.crfriend wrote:And if it doesn't happen on its own, then sometimes it's entirely appropriate to "assist it" in happening.Daryl wrote:Take every opportunity to let comedy happen, I say.
Daryl...
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Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
I'd have to say the incidents I remember of being "ma'amed" in public were mostly where the salesperson did not initially see me, just heard me. OTOH, quite some time back I started wearing mustaches, goatees and beards to "age" the 'baby-face'...and I tended to favor a 'Beatle's' type of haircut for a few decades until hereditary pattern baldness encroached too deeply. So perhaps the question might be....how androgynous do you/did you look? He asked, stirring the pot.....
Re: Femme Men and Conditioned Behaviour
The closest I ever came was a guy in the restroom asking if I was in the right one.
"Yes, and I'm about to prove it," I replied, and then I walked up to the urinal and did.
"Yes, and I'm about to prove it," I replied, and then I walked up to the urinal and did.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.
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