On crossdressing

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.

Re: On crossdressing

Postby Jim2 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:03 am

moonshadow wrote:It's all a very complicated issue, and I feel a lot of it boils down to the ball busting feminist movement in the west. From practically the time we are born, children are indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe that all women are victims, and all men are rapist, and the only logical reason a man would EVER want to wear a skirt is so he can draft dodge wars, and sneak in the women's bathroom and peep! It's absolute BS, and it makes me somewhat ashamed to be a part of this so called "civilized society".


I take exception to your claim that society's trouble with men wearing skirts has to do with feminism. I read lots of stuff related to the topic of men wearing skirts and I find that politically liberal women, who I'm sure would think of themselves as feminists, are often the first to defend a man's right to wear what he wants. Many of these women have realized how oppressive social norms are on children, who often wish to dress in ways that cross such norms. For example, see the facebook page "Let Clothes Be Clothes" https://www.facebook.com/letclothesbeclothes. I find that the discussion there and many other such places includes the idea that men should be able to wear skirts and dresses. Yes, it is not their focus which is on children not adults, but every now and then someone includes men as also oppressed by current norms in this manner. And the response is always that men should not be treated in this way. I don't think the problem is with feminists. I think the problem has more to do with people who are set in their ways and/or fear change. And that is more often seen on the conservative end of the political spectrum.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:14 am

Jim2 wrote:I take exception to your claim that society's trouble with men wearing skirts has to do with feminism.


But alas, I never said it was feminism.... I said...

moonshadow wrote:ball busting feminist


Please understand, I apply a difference between "feminist" (which I consider myself one), and "ball busting feminist"... aka a "man hater". I'm not sure if there is an official label for these women, so I just call them ball busters. If there is a more proper term for these man haters, then by all means, post it and I shall stand corrected.

The difference is akin to Christians vs Westboro Baptist Church.

And oh yes, there are man hating feminist out there, and oh yes, they do have a STRONG lobby in the states! I stand by what I said.

However I suppose these women are technically not feminist by the very definition of the word to promote feminism which is defined by google as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." Keyword "equality", which is not what the women I described seem to care about.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Jim2 » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:20 am

Ok, I understand your distinction and I am aware of terrible things that some women have done in the name of feminism. I do, however, claim that the main problem for us is not such so-called feminists but the conservative nature of some of our society and general fear of change.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:26 am

Jim2 wrote:Ok, I understand your distinction and I am aware of terrible things that some women have done in the name of feminism. I do, however, claim that the main problem for us is not such so-called feminists but the conservative nature of some of our society and general fear of change.


Yeah... I'll go along with that. As I said, it's a very complicated issue all around with trouble coming from many angles. I'll admit it wasn't fair for me to place ALL of the blame squarely on the man haters, especially when in my rebuttal I mentioned WBC, which I'm SURE would have a thing or two to say about "men in skirts", and not in a good way. :lol:

Thanks for calling it out, as I know in some post I have claimed to be a feminist, yet in others I write stuff like what was mentioned above.... I'm sure it has caused some confusion. I guess every social group has it's "extremist".
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Charlie » Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:36 am

moonshadow wrote:Please understand, I apply a difference between "feminist" (which I consider myself one), and "ball busting feminist"... aka a "man hater". I'm not sure if there is an official label for these women, so I just call them ball busters. If there is a more proper term for these man haters, then by all means, post it and I shall stand corrected.

Try misandry: Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex)
although we are more likely to hear the term misogyny: Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

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Re: On crossdressing

Postby crfriend » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:24 am

Charlie wrote:Try misandry: Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex)
although we are more likely to hear the term misogyny: Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

Charlie has a good point, and is entirely correct on the term "misandry". However, it's not a word that's in common use, and I'll put a fiver down that if you ask 100 random people on the street what the word means that less than 25 will know. "Misogeny", on the other hand, gets bandied about like candy on Halloween. It may be down to this that the term "man hater" came into being -- men forgot that a perfectly useful word already existed for the issue, and those who hate them were hardly going to offer ammunition in the form of a word, if they themselves knew it.

On another note, your true "man hater" possibly goes above and beyond simple misandry by actually taking action against men when an opportunity presents, thereby warranting another word (or phrase). I have reason to believe that I recently had a run-in with such types in the exceedingly ugly debacle with my ex.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:28 pm

crfriend wrote:
Charlie wrote:Try misandry: Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against men (i.e. the male sex)
although we are more likely to hear the term misogyny: Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.

Charlie has a good point, and is entirely correct on the term "misandry". However, it's not a word that's in common use, and I'll put a fiver down that if you ask 100 random people on the street what the word means that less than 25 will know. "Misogeny", on the other hand, gets bandied about like candy on Halloween. It may be down to this that the term "man hater" came into being -- men forgot that a perfectly useful word already existed for the issue, and those who hate them were hardly going to offer ammunition in the form of a word, if they themselves knew it.


That's exactly right. And you know what's sad, Carl is exactly right too, in fact, I DID know the word. It was already in my vocabulary (didn't need to look it up), however since it gets so little use, the word was buried in my head, and I don't think I've ever used it personally. Just read it once or twice in my entire life. So it never occurred to me to use the word. Carl's comment I bolded is exactly what happened to me.

And thus.... I stand corrected. Hence forth I shall use the correct word "misandry". Sorry for the confusion, and want to reiterate that you won't find a stronger support or TRUE equality than me. However I simply want the pendulum to stop dead center, no need for it to swing the other way. There are still a few areas where women lag behind men, I have personally witnessed this a few times. Pay, which slowly being corrected is still a problem. Case in point... my mother was severely underpaid and under promoted at her last job, while men would be hired after her and promoted ahead of her, despite the fact that she practically could run the business in her sleep. One women managed to be hired after her, and within a few years was her boss. It's also interesting that that particular woman began dating the owner during that ordeal.... so there you go. And a woman should not have to "sleep" her way to the top. But because my mother was virtuous, she never made it... and now works somewhere else.

And, also as I have stated in other threads, it is true that a problem with the perception of men wearing skirts in the west also stems from societies view that women are still the weaker sex, thus for a man to don a skirt implies that were are somehow "demeaning" our selves. This is a CLEAR feminist issue (true, fair feminism). Once society in general feel that dressing "like a woman" isn't shameful because "being a woman" isn't shameful, then I feel men wearing more feminine skirts will gain more acceptance.

You'll note that I have refrained from mentioning kilts in this thread, as kilts have to my knowledge always been male garments. I also have added "feminine" to describe the skirts I am talking about, as I personally think we should be able to wear what ever we want without prejudice. Whether it's a kilt, or a prom dress, or anything in between.

crfriend wrote:On another note, your true "man hater" possibly goes above and beyond simple misandry by actually taking action against men when an opportunity presents, thereby warranting another word (or phrase). I have reason to believe that I recently had a run-in with such types in the exceedingly ugly debacle with my ex.

I feel it is an unfortunate fact that too many misandrist have far too much pull in our law making process in the states, as well as too strong of an influence in the media. I recently was told a story yesterday about an 8 year old boy who was molested by his mother 4 years ago. This evidence was brought before the court, nothing was done. The woman walks free. Domestic Violence against men is real problem, but you won't hear about it on the news or on interstate billboards. You have to hunt underground in out of the way books, papers, and of course the internet. In the news you hear about the high minority percentage currently incarcerated, but not a peep about the fact that 93% of American inmates are male. They won't tell you the statistical fact that has been proven that when comparing apples to apples, women serve shorter sentences for the same crimes as men.

Up until a few years ago, I looked at these injustices as the direct result of feminism in America. I hated feminist, as I feel they hated me. Then I actually heard a real life feminist lecture for the first time. When she spoke, she talked about true feminism, what it represents, and how these misandrist are giving the movement of women's equality very bad PR. This wasn't some teenage blogger. She was a well respected, and educated professor at a local college. After her lecture, and a little more reading on the subject, I began to realize that not all "feminist" are the same. A fair number of them can be reasonable. Sure they may get angry from time to time when they feel the cards are stacked against them, but I feel most feminist... where the rubber meets the road would at least support fairness for men too.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby dillon » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:47 pm

Disaffected.citizen wrote:First post here. I read often.

dillon wrote:.... the fairer sex, ......


Although I am quoting Dillon, this is aimed at any and all who use this term; this is as sexist and discriminatory against men as the term as cross-dresser is to us. Think about the inference.

Please use woman/women.

Many (perhaps most) of us are discriminated against simply because we choose a slightly different lifestyle. In a domestic setting, by any other definition, we are often subjected to abuse. We have to "negotiate" to be allowed freedom. OK, so we're not in the same situation as those under repressive political regimes where, en-masse, we may be detained for our views, but nonetheless, we are denied rights simply because we are men.

The sadest point is that the authorities do not recognise the problem. Point of fact, that by failing to recognise it, they perpetuate and exacerbate it. I know for fact that at least one man was told to "man up and take it on the chin" and that he "should have picked a better person" when he sought help from the medical profession and legal system. Imagine they used such terms to a rape victim!


Welcome, Disaffected citizen. Your admonishment not withstanding, I'll reserve my right to employ my quaint euphemisms, especially when not tendered either maliciously or dismissively in the context of the post. I am not sure what discrimination you may have suffered, but will defer to your statement implying that you feel discriminated against. My life, however, has been by my own choices, and I don't view myself or my life through a lens of victimology. So forgive me if I do not always comprehend your particular POV.

And I heartily agree with you that we are certainly not in the same situation as those suffering under repressive regimes. I might even point to the lethal repression of LGBTQ orientation in Uganda and Rwanda as something unimaginable to most of us.

You are free, naturally, to opine as you please in these fora; I certainly do. But I would ask only the courtesy of refraining from eisegeting themes or intentions that don't exist. It leaves the impression of one who cannot see the forest because of all the trees. I am confident, too, that you can find many, many things in my posts far less politically correct than the expression "fairer sex" to criticize. :D Hopefully such critiques will reflect the entire post. Again, welcome to the Cafe.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby jamodu » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:36 pm

On watching this recent interview with Eddie Izzard - who is wearing a skirt suit with heels and tights - admits to lately redefining himself as 'Trans' rather than 'Transvestite'.

It would be unfortunate if 'cross-dressers' were similarly described as 'Trans'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjZz7Skl5JU
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Caultron » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:44 pm

jamodu wrote:On watching this recent interview with Eddie Izzard - who is wearing a skirt suit with heels and tights - admits to lately redefining himself as 'Trans' rather than 'Transvestite'.

It would be unfortunate if 'cross-dressers' were similarly described as 'Trans'...

I find it best to avoid obsessing about such labels.

But if you must, then categorize whatever label you fear applies to you positively, or at least neutrally.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby dillon » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:30 pm

Trans is a term now embraced by members of a community, which, very like the correspondents to this website, find that their own personal images and/or proclivities do not fit into any pre-defined category. It is a unifying term that builds community among travelers on a similar, but not identical, life journey. I would say that most of us are round pegs being expected to fit into square holes by the world at large, and this site has welcomed the full spectrum of men, despite being ostensibly not about crossdressing, transvestitism, transgender, or trans- anything. Yet those issues are still to some exten inseparable from our own journeys. Personally, I'd rather wear the moniker "trans-" than I would "crossdresser" because not category has been invented that sums up my existence; so a broad class is better than the very narrow "crossdresser" which, in my own mental image, is neither positive or affirmative as an adjective or noun to apply to someone.

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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:29 pm

Upon letting the dust settle on this topic for a bit and giving it a some thought on a fresh perspective, I'm going to say that perhaps it just doesn't matter anyway. All of the words spoken all over the world are a product of human kind. They are definitions to people, places and things that we have assigned over the eons and the definition of words, like mankind are fluid and subject to change. A very recent example of this is the use of the word "gay". When just a few decades ago gay, as we all know defined someone who was happy, joyful, and carefree. I hear the classic definition more and more around this time a year as it pops up in classic Christmas songs.

So does wearing a skirt make me gay? You betcha!

I run into the issue of labels very often in other matters of my life. I am, by my own admission difficult to define in just one simple catch all phrase. I went through this label phase once or twice in my life already. The most recent of which, when I was trying to define my spiritual views, which for those who know me intimately, know that they aren't Wiccan in the strictest definition of the word, however it is the label that I use in public, as it best aligns with my beliefs in the most general sense. It also brings me within the circle of a community of other people of similar beliefs. With that example in mind, perhaps it's not important to get hung up on the label of "crossdresser". Perhaps the label doesn't really matter anyway.

As I post pictures of me wearing my skirts on my flickr account I notice that people "fave" and follow my thread are mostly what we would consider crossdressers and crossdresser admirers. So with that in mind, like it or not, it would seem that we, for the most part will be grouped in with the crossdressing crowd. And after further contemplation I'm going to go ahead and say that while I disagree with the label on principle only (as it is a rule that doesn't apply to women wearing men's clothes), it does move us into a larger circle where we can find support and power in numbers. Crossdressers could, and should be our allies in our fight for the freedom of choose. Which is a common denominator across both groups.

To put it another way, just because we identify as "men in skirts" and not simply as crossdressers does not make us some type of male skirting aristocrat. We are, after all human beings, just like all the other people on this planet, and in the grand scheme of things, looking in at us from the greater cosmos, we all are nothing more.... all of us. For it is certainly possible that 100 years from now men wearing skirts will no longer be considered crossdressing because it will be so commonplace that even the classic definition of the word will no longer apply, as it doesn't with women today. It is also possible that 1,000 years from now, if humanity still exist at all, clothing in all it's forms may be something completely strange and bizarre compared to what we are accustomed to today.

The law of man says that we are crossdressers. The law of man is fluid and ever changing. The law of Nature really doesn't care. The law of Nature is absolute! If Nature wanted me to wear clothes, I would have been born clothed. What I have clad myself with over the last 35 years has been a result of society NOT Nature. And with each passing year of my life, I have less and less respect for "mankind" and his various rules. I am becoming aware that all of his rules are simply to hold me in my place, to force my submission into the little box that I was raised in. There are certain rules (laws) of mankind that I must abide in to keep myself out of trouble and jail. God knows it's not hard to break a law in our nation that has more laws than grains of sand on a beach, but to the best of my knowledge, me simply wearing a skirt is still legal in mankinds all important system of laws.... so I shall drink from that cup, and enjoy this little privilege while I still can. For at some point in the near future my time here will expire, and there is no way of knowing with exact certainty what shall happen to my soul, if it even exist, after that day.

Moving forward I'm going to attempt not to concern myself with societies perception of me. If they want to think I'm queer, gay, crossdressing, a queen, odd, strange, whatever then that's their prerogative. But just as it's their right to "view" me in whatever colored glasses they wish, I too shall reserve my right to view them as ignorant.

So go ahead world.... judge me, because I'm judging you too! And yes, the world may not care how I judge it... but guess what... the feeling is mutual.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby crfriend » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:42 pm

moonshadow wrote:[... J]ust because we identify as "men in skirts" and not simply as crossdressers does not make us some type of male skirting aristocrat.

I beg your pardon? :bom:

Altogether too many people fall into the trap of believing that correlation equals causation, and that causes the bloke in a skirt to get lumped into categories into which he may -- or may not -- fit. If the labelling is correct, then there's no harm and, therefore, no foul; however, if the label is incorrect then profound harm may well arise as many assumptions made may be flat-out wrong resulting in incorrect (note the avoidance of "right" and "wrong") behaviours being deployed during any interaction.

We can take it as fairly axiomatic that most folks, when encountering a bloke in a skirt for the first time, are going to automatically think "crossdresser" (or its tarted-up synonym "transvestite") -- and in some cases they may be correct; however, bearing in mind that correlation (a bloke wearing a skirt in public) does not necessarily imply causation, it's entirely possible that the bloke is wearing a skirt not for some innate need to "connect with his 'feminine' side" but rather simply because he feels like it. The question, then, becomes one of how the onlooker responds to the stimulus -- and that choice becomes one grounded in how much of an open mind said onlooker has. (Most onlookers won't get this far, which is the problem.) Getting lumped into the wrong bin, in this case, can result in profound difficulties, sometimes (although fortunately rarely) with physical injury involved. The pernicious bit is that the longer one occupies the incorrect bin, the more likely for harm in other more subtle ways -- which is why I feel it's important to make a differentiation between "traditional crossdressing" and merely adopting an otherwise unusual style without any "release".

This is a very deep hole to climb out of, and the bloke who's wearing a skirt simply for the sake of it is starting out (from society's viewpoint) at the bottom of the hole. Traditional crossdressers are common enough (although likely largely misunderstood), but men adopting skirted styles for simple aesthetic reasons seems rather new, and will almost certainly be misinterpreted. This why I think it's important to disambiguate the two. Hence, "I am not a crossdresser."
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Reaper_Man » Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:14 pm

sometimes i wear trousers and shirts, i also wear t-shirts, but then sometimes i wear a kilt and sometimes i wear skirts or dresses, sometimes i wear tops from the womens aisle i also sometimes wear tights with those skirts/dresses/tops

when i wear trousers and shirts etc people in the street will see me as a man, when wearing 'female' clothes they probably see me as a crossdresser or a weirdo, maybe they even think i'm gay (and i don't mean gay as in happy) ... quite frankly i couldn't give a f*** what they think

so am i a crossdresser, or maybe i'm trans or some other term that people might think i am, the answer is .... i'm none of them, i'm just me, i'm unique and i dress in whatever i feel like wearing at the time and if someone don't like it well that's their problem
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Sinned » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:05 pm

Sorry MS but I'm with Carl and ReaperMan here. I wear skirts as part of my wardrobe along with trousers, shorts and other apparel. It doesn't make me fir into any of the boxes cross or trans - like RM I'm my own self. The end. And the only person whose opinion I value is MOH's and that's where my really only problem lies because she doesn't like it - mainly. I wish with my whole heart that she could support me. :?:
Last edited by Sinned on Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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