On crossdressing

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.

Re: On crossdressing

Postby skirtingtoday » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:30 pm

dillon wrote:... We all attach our own uses to terms, and for me, crossdresser evokes the image of a closeted male, possibly TG, who dresses as a female secretly, for sexual arousal, though never intending to step out in public. Transvestite, to me, implies a male who is probably TG, and dresses as a woman to be in public, perhaps as a matter of gender identity and/or sexual arousal. The transvestite tries to emulate a female as best he can, and worries that he will be discovered, but still desires to "pass" publically and takes the risks that provide satisfaction. A drag queen also dresses to pass as a woman, but doesn't necessarily care if people see through his disguise. In fact, he may realize the impossibility of his "passing" but still feels the desire to publically identify as a woman; the absurdity factor may add to his satisfaction or arousal, and may lead him to make his outfits bizarre or outlandish. Anyway, those are the associations I have with the terms; each association is my own and mine alone.


I would agree with those definitions though cross-dresser is deemed these days to include a guy-in-a-skirt which is most of us here. I do not agree with that personally and I say that associating us with the crossdresser definition above is erroneous. I do not consider myself a crossdresser though the skirts I wear do come from the other side of the store.

I have seen several "drag-queens" (other that at "Gay Pride" marches, of which I have seen quite a few). One night, I was out for a small refreshment (with MOH) and there was a "hen night" in full swing. However, two of the "hens" there were definitely men in drag. I suspect that they knew the girl getting married very well and wished to join them but were only allowed to on one condition.
Another time, I spotted what I thought was a very good-looking woman sitting at the bar with a pint but I am convinced "she" was a transvestite as her face was too masculine and the wig was just that bit too large (think Big Hair)
I cannot say I have met any crossdressers and I have seen several men and youths wearing skirts over the years though but I would not consider them as crossdressers.
Last edited by skirtingtoday on Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby denimini » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:53 pm

skirtyscot wrote: Children are often open to new ideas. ...................Children tend to be big on fairness. Always worth a try!

Yes, most kids are curious about me wearing a skirt and some do ask "how come you are wearing a skirt?" or similar but all so far seem to think it is OK and never a response that I shouldn't wear one. There are many things that are new to children and a man wearing a skirt is just one more and no big deal.
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Jim2 » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:09 pm

Barefoot Joe wrote:I'm not sure if it's really that simple. Sure you can state that you don't belong in the crossdresser labeled box, but unfortunately all the other people have their very own boxes and because they use societies rules for it, we end up in their crossdresser box. Or worse. ;) I dont think we can do much about it except wearing our skirts with pride in public until society learned that men can wear skirts and are not crossdressing at all. As I can't do anything against other people labeling me in any way they like, I just don't care about it anymore. See me as crossdresser, as gay, as a man with skirt fetish, as weirdo, I just don't care. And what's the big deal of being seen as a crossdresser anyway? Heck, I even don't see the problem of being one? Im the last one who wants to pass as woman, but I have a deep respect for them, because they share more than the same trouble with us skirt wearing men and have the balls to go through all this hassle just to follow their dreams.


I'm not so sure this is true. Maybe to some extent. But I find more tolerant attitudes from men I know about my wearing skirts than I find from women. The men I know often view it as a question of freedom of choice. I think women don't like the idea of a man encroaching on what they perceive to be their territory. It's hard, after all, to feel feminine wearing a skirt if it's clothing for men just as much for women.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:51 pm

skirtingtoday wrote:
dillon wrote:... We all attach our own uses to terms, and for me, crossdresser evokes the image of a closeted male, possibly TG, who dresses as a female secretly, for sexual arousal, though never intending to step out in public. Transvestite, to me, implies a male who is probably TG, and dresses as a woman to be in public, perhaps as a matter of gender identity and/or sexual arousal. The transvestite tries to emulate a female as best he can, and worries that he will be discovered, but still desires to "pass" publically and takes the risks that provide satisfaction. A drag queen also dresses to pass as a woman, but doesn't necessarily care if people see through his disguise. In fact, he may realize the impossibility of his "passing" but still feels the desire to publically identify as a woman; the absurdity factor may add to his satisfaction or arousal, and may lead him to make his outfits bizarre or outlandish. Anyway, those are the associations I have with the terms; each association is my own and mine alone.


I would agree with those definitions though cross-dresser is deemed these days to include a guy-in-a-skirt which is most of us here. I do not agree with that personally and I say that associating us with the crossdresser definition above is erroneous. I do not consider myself a crossdresser though the skirts I wear do come from the other side of the store.

I have seen several "drag-queens" (other that at "Gay Pride" marches, of which I have seen quite a few). One night, I was out for a small refreshment (with MOH) and there was a "hen night" in full swing. However, two of the there "hens" were definitely men in drag. I suspect that they knew the girl getting married very well and wished to join them but were only allowed to on one condition.
Another time, I spotted what I thought was a very good-looking woman sitting at the bar with a pint but I am convinced "she" was a transvestite as her face was too masculine and the wig was just that bit too large (think Big Hair)
I cannot say I have met any crossdressers and I have seen several men and youths wearing skirts over the years though but I would not consider them as crossdressers.


I also believe there is a clear difference between the "classic crossdresser" and a drag queen. Pardon me, but I must offer examples with illustrations (from google)

Please note, I have attempted to find photo's that was as G rated as possible, and to the mods, I show this to illustrate a point....

13472167435_ab8477fd0f_o.jpg

^^^This is a crossdresser (pulled up when I googled "crossdresser" images). This photo was part of a set featuring this particular person, who I believe is a passable woman. I'll admit, some of "her" photo's were attractive.

drag.jpg

^^^ This is a drag queen (from google images) The enormous hair, overdone makeup, and plentiful, large jewelry give it away. I personally believe this look is intentional, to make him look a flaming peacock, but I may be incorrect, as I admit I am somewhat ignorant of the motives of drag queens. No offense to any drag queens that may come across this post, but I have yet to see a drag queen that I found "attractive".

tumblr_l00njrwPCz1qzjgceo1_500.jpg

^^^ This is a man in his skirt. (the one on the right). The skirt was clearly purchased from the women's isle. And while I personally find the fella sexually unattractive, the young lady on the left appears to feel the opposite.

Conclusion: It is my opinion that one would have to be pretty ignorant to classify all of these photo's in the same category. The only thing they all have in common is the genitals. Each picture illustrates a very different view.

To use another example, its like saying Muslims, Jews, and Christians are all part of the same religion. Even though their "God" is the same, still the three religions are very different.... same applies here with crossdressers, drag queens, and men in their skirts. Sorry, didn't mean to play the "religion" card, but it was the best example I could think of this morning.... (please NO religious debates on this thread.... it was just an EXAMPLE)
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:23 pm

Hmmmm. I just realized I contradicted myself on my last comment verses my first comment. To apply my own definition of crossdresser as described in the op. The person pictured in image one would NOT be a crossdresser assuming she is wearing her own clothes. Transgender? Maybe.... She certainly looks better to my eye than many biological women.

I'd also like to share a thought on how google plays into this discussion that I just thought of today. But its more than I want to tackle on this phone keypad. Later tonight if there is time.

I also sense my foot getting awfully close to my mouth. I hope im not being misunderstood in what im trying to say here.... I have a feeling some are misunderstanding me. To reiterate... I am not prejudiced against "crossdressers" in fact Ill admit Im somewhat of an admirer (those who are passable), I just don't like being called a crossdresser because i don't think that's what I am.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby r.m.anderson » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:23 pm

moonshadow:

What you are trying to say is: I er ahem "Resemble that Photo" ! Photo 3 ? Is that correct ?

I don't picture you in the other photos and definitely NOT number 2.
Number 1 has the effect on me "To die for" !
Nice female shaping although the legs have an inverse bow effect and the clothes fit perfect.
Strictly an observation based on your provided images.

COMMENT:
A personal Thanks to your frequent and enlightening participation in the SkirtCafe !
A real refreshing outlook on the topics regarding Men in Skirts !
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Reaper_Man » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:27 pm

moonshadow wrote:This is a drag queen (from google images) The enormous hair, overdone makeup, and plentiful, large jewelry give it away. I personally believe this look is intentional, to make him look a flaming peacock, but I may be incorrect, as I admit I am somewhat ignorant of the motives of drag queens. No offense to any drag queens that may come across this post, but I have yet to see a drag queen that I found "attractive".


i think the whole point (in the UK and Europe at least) is that drag queens are not supposed to be attractive and the intention is to look like a man pretending to be a woman simply for entertainment, i have been to a few drag shows and they are usually quite funny and entertaining (i've seen a couple of awful drag shows too), in most cases at the end of the show the drag artist will remove his make-up, wig and female clothing (don't worry they normally have a t-shirt and shorts etc underneath) to reveal his true identity, most drag queens that i have seen have been straight men (often married etc) and they do it purely as a job (or second job in some cases) to earn money and because they enjoy the fun they get from doing it, very few drag queens will go out in public on a day to day basis with their costumes on and only go public in costume to advertise their show, this happens a lot in Europe (Spain definitely) when the drag artist will walk around tourist resorts in the afternoon advertising a show taking place locally later in the evening/night
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Reaper_Man » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:43 pm

here are some before and after pics of Duncan, a drag artist that works in Ibiza, with such elaborate costumes it wouldn't really make good day to day wear :D
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:49 am

r.m.anderson wrote:What you are trying to say is: I er ahem "Resemble that Photo" ! Photo 3 ? Is that correct ?


Yep, I resemble that photo right down to the beautiful woman by my side!
smallandyjenn.jpg


r.m.anderson wrote:Number 1 has the effect on me "To die for" !
Nice female shaping although the legs have an inverse bow effect and the clothes fit perfect.

Yeah, she's a cutie. In fact, to be honest, I couldn't really display what my mind conjures when I think of "crossdresser" as the images google presented may be a bit to provocative for this site. The "woman" in image one had a few more in her set, and like the song goes.... "she's got the look".

Reaper_Man wrote:i think the whole point (in the UK and Europe at least) is that drag queens are not supposed to be attractive and the intention is to look like a man pretending to be a woman simply for entertainment

Yeah, I'll go along with that, it seems to line up with my assumptions, but again I just wasn't really sure.

...

r.m.anderson wrote:A personal Thanks to your frequent and enlightening participation in the SkirtCafe !
A real refreshing outlook on the topics regarding Men in Skirts !


Thanks. I know I talk a lot (well I'm actually typing, but in the real world I am a chatter box), and sometimes my mouth moves faster than my brain can keep up. Sometimes I can be a downright idiot. Sometimes I wonder if I'm getting on people's nerves. If so, I don't try to, I just enjoy discussions with people and bouncing ideas off the wall. I have gotten better though... you should see some of the dumb stuff I posted on the internet 10 years ago!

As far as enlightenment.... oh no, this site has been very enlightening for me. I'm one of the youngest active posters here, and I know that I have learned a lot more from you all than you have from me. (Like swimming in a skirt, I'm sure I'm not the first one here to try that and determine it wasn't a very good idea :lol: )
PS: It's really sad (for me) when someone who is 15 years younger than me seems more grounded and logical than I am... and it happens more than I care to admit! :D
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby crfriend » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:22 am

moonshadow wrote:It's really sad (for me) when someone who is 15 years younger than me seems more grounded and logical than I am... and it happens more than I care to admit! :D

Having been in that situation myself, and recalling what it's like, let me take a stab at what's going through the younger set's mind, and to follow it through.

Growing up is rough. We've all (at least many of us) done it, and we've likely done it with a minimum of guidance. Our parents will have done their level best to clear a path for us, but the path they cleared was charted by their experiences which were not the experiences of their children; the child's experiences will, in the modern world, likely be very different from what his parents' were. As the pace of things increases, this gap widens. (This may be a reason why children often see more eye-to-eye with their grandparents than their parents; the grandparents have seen it first-hand and know to make allowances for it.)

So, kicking off on his own, the young adult will quite naturally go into "problem-solving mode" to make sense of the world around him. He will also tend to throw off some of the frivolity of childhood as he struggles to make sense of the seemingly overwhelming world around him. This manifests as a simplification of everything to its barest essentials which eases the problem-solving task - the upshot of this is that what happens looks a whole lot like "conformity", even though it may not really be. Add into the mix, the fact that the young adult, if he has chosen the career route (which is increasingly becoming impossible), needs to prove himself and his skills, and to gain credibility and recognition in his career, both of which he knows will become increasingly important with time. This manifests as rigidity, or at least it can. The young adult is not strapped to the rails, roller-coaster-like, but close; without some form of framework to cling to, making sense of the great morass that's swirling around him would simply be impossible.

Eventually the young adult becomes a full adult, likely around the age of 30 or so ("Never trust anyone over 30!"); the framework that he's held onto during his learning experience is largely unneeded then, and he's free to explore what things are like in free space without the need for crutches or "training-wheels". However, this period of time can be confusing as it requires a different mentality and a different set of tools than what was required during young adulthood. If he's fortunate (or very, very, good), his reputation is reasonably well established, but he knows that he cannot necessarily bank on that for he's still on his ascendency, and he likely grasps that as well. So, some of the tools that were in active use in his younger years remain, albeit in a diminished capacity, and some of the constraints and behaviours carry over -- like conformity and some, albeit now less, rigidity.

Fast forward another several years, and we find our lad in mid-life (which actually occurs "on the way up", not at the beginning of the way down); he's well established (again, if the stars have smiled upon him), has a modicum of security about him, and a reasonably stable and decent life. He's also gained an appreciation that these trappings can be illusory and fleeting; he wants to hold onto them. Here's where the box of conformity starts to close in, and it's not a box that he ever wanted to be inside (having watched what it did to his parents), but finds himself in nonetheless. It comes as a rather rude shock. Here's where "mid-life crises" begin germinating.

By the time most of us reach their late 40s and early 50s, our "star years" are likely behind us. We are established enough -- and "old enough" -- that the world expects some eccentricities to set in. It's too early for senility, too late for a "mid-life crisis", and yet there remains some steam to be let off; creativity needs an outlet, and unless we've been in a creative field that need has likely been neglected. We've also grown somewhat bitter about the world around us. Regret begins to creep in; our friends may begin dying off around us. At this point, we begin to realise that the freedom to create really is important: that we need to be able to express ourselves. Somehow. By this time, the old framework that served us well in earlier times has largely been discarded; we haven't really become our parents, nor have we become our grandparents -- we are very much our own, and on our own -- and all of a sudden the world looks like a very big place. Some of us take up painting, music, or poetry (the Arts); some take on second careers or thirds; some go back to school realising that they never did learn all of it (and never will); and some take up the oddball notion of challenging an age-old double standard and start wearing skirts simply because we can and it gives us an outlet for the creativity that's been longing to escape since childhood but which has been safely bottled up.

As I reach the end of my life -- and that could happen today -- I'm comfortable with where I've been, what I've done, and how I've done it. My reputation in my field is intact, which gives me enormous pride and satisfaction, and I have branched out into other ventures as well. When I was a young adult I never imagined turning into an historian of computing; that I'd be running a small piece of the "social media" space (it didn't exist at the time; nor did the Internet, but computer networks did); being sought out to answer technical questions about computers from a half-century ago so they might be restored to running; to have the creative need to branch out from the dull and the drab (I always got my kicks in the highly technical arena); and I never imagined I'd ever wear a skirt in public. Never.

So, here I am, to use MoonShadow's analogy, at "waning gibbous" (or, perhaps "waning half") on my descendency but quite happy with the results. The clouds may close in to finish the job, but I'll take that in stride if it happens. In the end, we all make our mark -- even if others point fingers and laugh at us. We finally -- finally -- discovered that we had the freedom to shoot for the stars all along, and only in later life discovered the courage to actually do so. 'Tis a shame it takes so blasted long, but these things do.
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby skirtyscot » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:22 pm

Keep on skirting,

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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:29 pm

skirtyscot wrote:http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/download/file.php?id=5539&t=1

Isn't that Adele?


I certainly hope not! I admit to having somewhat of a "celebrity crush" on her! That and Florence Welch, what lovely ladies.

And Carl, I have about 60 seconds and I have to shoot out the door for a dentist appointment, but I wanted to say thanks for your understanding words on this thread, and throughout the site. My impression is that you're most likely an "old soul". A kind old soul at that. I wish you well today, and hope good news will find you. Will probably write more tonight, but right now I have to go.

Best of luck,

-Moon
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby dillon » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:32 pm

skirtyscot wrote:http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/download/file.php?id=5539&t=1

Isn't that Adele?


Oh, that was harsh! But I am still laughing....
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby Disaffected.citizen » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:33 pm

First post here. I read often.

dillon wrote:.... the fairer sex, ......


Although I am quoting Dillon, this is aimed at any and all who use this term; this is as sexist and discriminatory against men as the term as cross-dresser is to us. Think about the inference.

Please use woman/women.

Many (perhaps most) of us are discriminated against simply because we choose a slightly different lifestyle. In a domestic setting, by any other definition, we are often subjected to abuse. We have to "negotiate" to be allowed freedom. OK, so we're not in the same situation as those under repressive political regimes where, en-masse, we may be detained for our views, but nonetheless, we are denied rights simply because we are men.

The sadest point is that the authorities do not recognise the problem. Point of fact, that by failing to recognise it, they perpetuate and exacerbate it. I know for fact that at least one man was told to "man up and take it on the chin" and that he "should have picked a better person" when he sought help from the medical profession and legal system. Imagine they used such terms to a rape victim!
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Re: On crossdressing

Postby moonshadow » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:16 am

Disaffected.citizen wrote:Many (perhaps most) of us are discriminated against simply because we choose a slightly different lifestyle. In a domestic setting, by any other definition, we are often subjected to abuse. We have to "negotiate" to be allowed freedom. OK, so we're not in the same situation as those under repressive political regimes where, en-masse, we may be detained for our views, but nonetheless, we are denied rights simply because we are men.

The sadest point is that the authorities do not recognise the problem. Point of fact, that by failing to recognise it, they perpetuate and exacerbate it. I know for fact that at least one man was told to "man up and take it on the chin" and that he "should have picked a better person" when he sought help from the medical profession and legal system. Imagine they used such terms to a rape victim!


What can I say.... you speak the truth. And I don't know what else to do about it other than challenge these negative stereotypes and double standards as much as possible.

Okay, so I may be a little left of the center in my definition of "crossdresser", and while I will say that I personally do not find fault with the practice, or crossdressers, I have reason to suspect that the greater majority of the populous does have a problem with it.

Look, I understand that some crossdressers don't have a problem being called such, and that's fine. I really don't have a problem with someone who simply doesn't know better calling ME a crossdresser. The issue is the negative reaction that falls in the publics eye when it comes down to use of the word.

As long as I'm just regarded by society in general as a "creepy old crossdresser" I can forget being able to land a job where I might be able to wear a skirt at the office, or at any other event where guest are taken seriously. There will always be issues with us being accepted at our various churches, and other events where people generally "dress nice".

And yes, some regard all of us as "creepy old crossdressers". I've personally witnessed as I shop in the womans section of stores, or just walking around in public in general, it doesn't happen often, but it's still too much, the guardian of a child (parent/grandparent) will cover their kids eyes, and lead them away from me.... "come on son, lets get out of here". When I first came to this board, I read a comment somewhere on here where it happened to someone else (I forget who), and it bothered him. Of course it did! We're treated like pedophile monsters!

But you let a woman walk in with MEN'S wear (actual MEN'S wear...and it DOES happen), and not a word is said!

It's all a very complicated issue, and I feel a lot of it boils down to the ball busting feminist movement in the west. From practically the time we are born, children are indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe that all women are victims, and all men are rapist, and the only logical reason a man would EVER want to wear a skirt is so he can draft dodge wars, and sneak in the women's bathroom and peep! It's absolute BS, and it makes me somewhat ashamed to be a part of this so called "civilized society".

BTW: I know I may be coming off as "bitter" right now... I'm really not, I'm perfectly calm and collected. Ultimately I try not to care about what society thinks, society has proven time and time again that they are collective MORONS. I'm simply speaking out against an injustice.

....

Oh and welcome to the board! Nice to meet you... I'm Moon.
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