On crossdressing

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
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moonshadow
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by moonshadow »

denimini wrote:We have to acknowledge the success of women in changing "Society" views to more positive terms applied to a broader choice of clothing. It was achieved by a large number of women breaking convention and demanding acceptance.
To be clear, I don't fault women for taking advantage of a social freedom, that being the right to wear whatever they want, personally and professionally. I'd be a hypocrite if I said that.... although to be fair, I wonder how many women of today would wear trousers if the "pioneers" of 60 odd some years ago hadn't paved the way. But I digress.

No this is a problem with men and men only. I believe there are more men in the western world who would like the opportunity to wear clothing such as skirts and dresses, but are too afraid for whatever reason to actually give it a go. Men are like sheep, they go where ever they are being herded. Women on the other hand, tend to be free thinking. They are generally more cunning, and many are not afraid to challenge a status quo. What's even more interesting (worse?) is most women have most men ready to do anything, not even short of killing for them. This is why I get so nervous around women. They are dangerous, they can chew you up and spit you out, and society will just sit back and laugh while she does it.... and she can do it by proxy- not even have to dirty her hands.... Just make a couple of men think they are going to get a little nookie, and they'll step over their own mother.... Pigs.... they're all PIGS.

Men (in general) can be real idiots, and cowards. Very few, and I mean an extremely small number are truly brave "on their own". As I make my observation of the male gender, I can not help but be ashamed. Many here will not like what I just said, but I can't help it... I call it as I see it. Although I have no desire to undergo SRS, deep down, I do often wish I was born a girl.

Some might say... "Moonshadow, you have clearly indicated you don't like women, and now you're saying you don't much care for men... who do you like?"

... ... ...

BINGO!
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Jim2 »

denimini wrote:Hence, more men wearing a broader variety of clothing, for whatever reason, will help achieve the same result of general acceptance and the term crossdresser will become meaningless and disappear altogether.
It will happen when young men, wanting to emulate celebrities who wear skirts as men, and young women wanting them to, decide to do so. That's why I think the example of Jaden Smith is so potentially important.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by partlyscot »

Couya wrote: As far as I remember it was Partlyscot that wrote that he thought the subject inappropriate to this forum, in so far as crossdressing seems imply dome deviant from mainstream sexual mores.
I do not remember saying that. I raised an objection to one picture out of 3 that another member posted. I am quite alright with the subject being discussed on here, and in fact I see nothing wrong with crossdressing itself, in whatever form you mean, but I thought that picture in particular, was not appropriate for this forum.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by pelmut »

denimini wrote:... the term crossdresser will become meaningless and disappear altogether.
That is the key to this whole debate.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Kilted Musician »

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Last edited by Kilted Musician on Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Couya
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Couya »

My apologies, Partlyscot; I should have checked writers' names and words before writing.

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Re: On crossdressing

Post by moonshadow »

During the new years eve program of 2016, I watched as Bill Nye the science guy was interviewed briefly. As a man of science, he made a very quick comment about our new years celebration as being somewhat arbitrary. Which I took to imply the reasoning that we celebrate our new year on January 1st of each year. Even how we arrange our months, the fact that there are 12 of them, again is a product of our own civilization's evolution. In fact, while the Gregorian calendar is the de facto standard in our western world view, it is true that many cultures have, and some still do use different arrangements of the days complete with different new years days. The only constant is that the Earth rotates the sun just about once every 365 Earth rotations. Every other means of date tracking beyond that is a matter of culture. Including how many graduations we divide Earth's rotation into (24). Could have just as easily been 12, 18, 1,045... or any other number.

What does this have to do with crossdressing?

It has nothing to do with crossdressing, but a lot to do with the word "crossdressing". It too is somewhat arbitrary. It's definition is not defined, or measurable by the laws of Nature, rather it is a definition assigned by human civilization. And although what makes up an hour in our daily schedule is not likely to change anytime in the near, or far future, the fact that society in general refers to us as "crossdresser's" just may. The very google definition of the word would seem to imply that should more than 50% of a civilizations male population begin to wear clothing previously considered for the "other" gender, then that new majority (in this example, the men) would no longer be crossdressers. In fact, by some weird twist of irony... if skirts were to completely fall out of vogue for females, save for a very small percentage, and men take up the fashion... then any female who continued to wear a skirt would now be considered the "crossdresser"!

Arbitrary indeed!

Growing pockets of western society seem to be moving towards an era where the very concept of "crossdresser" is obsolete... despite the resistance of the American religious extremist. Some men who wear clothes for women are proud to carry the label of "crossdresser", and that's fine. If one doesn't have a problem with the word, then that's their right. However to those, I would say don't be disappointed if at some future time.... the world at large no longer considers you as such, and simply calls you a "person wearing his/her clothes". Because the fact of the matter is... regardless of what ever arbitrary definition we use to define what it is we do.... unless we stole, or are borrowing the garments.... we are all... wearing our own clothes.

And they are just that.... clothes.

There is no shame in men wearing skirts.
There is no shame in women wearing trousers.
There is no shame in crossdressing, in any variable of the word.
There is only shame in people trying to force other people to be something other than their selves.

For those who are pressed for time... the question "are you a crossdresser?"

My answer: "Crossdresser is such an arbitrary word... I'm just me".

Let the enlightenment flow!
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Taj »

Stereotypes and pigeonholes are a lazy way of thinking; that really don't use much thought. If not clothes maybe it's hairstyle. Best friends in the Philippines, even males, could be seen walking holding hands years ago. ( I haven't been there in decades and don't know if this is still the case.) No one thought it was "gay." My point is that as humans we do some weird stuff in our heads. Open mindedness and enlightenment seem rare.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Judah14 »

Taj wrote:Best friends in the Philippines, even males, could be seen walking holding hands years ago. ( I haven't been there in decades and don't know if this is still the case.)
I don't often see people do that today, but as I see there is nothing weird about it. On the other hand, "bro hugs" are somehow common, especially among teenagers.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Elisabetta »

moonshadow wrote:
denimini wrote:We have to acknowledge the success of women in changing "Society" views to more positive terms applied to a broader choice of clothing. It was achieved by a large number of women breaking convention and demanding acceptance.
To be clear, I don't fault women for taking advantage of a social freedom, that being the right to wear whatever they want, personally and professionally. I'd be a hypocrite if I said that.... although to be fair, I wonder how many women of today would wear trousers if the "pioneers" of 60 odd some years ago hadn't paved the way. But I digress.

No this is a problem with men and men only. I believe there are more men in the western world who would like the opportunity to wear clothing such as skirts and dresses, but are too afraid for whatever reason to actually give it a go. Men are like sheep, they go where ever they are being herded. Women on the other hand, tend to be free thinking. They are generally more cunning, and many are not afraid to challenge a status quo. What's even more interesting (worse?) is most women have most men ready to do anything, not even short of killing for them. This is why I get so nervous around women. They are dangerous, they can chew you up and spit you out, and society will just sit back and laugh while she does it.... and she can do it by proxy- not even have to dirty her hands.... Just make a couple of men think they are going to get a little nookie, and they'll step over their own mother.... Pigs.... they're all PIGS.

Men (in general) can be real idiots, and cowards. Very few, and I mean an extremely small number are truly brave "on their own". As I make my observation of the male gender, I can not help but be ashamed. Many here will not like what I just said, but I can't help it... I call it as I see it. Although I have no desire to undergo SRS, deep down, I do often wish I was born a girl.

Some might say... "Moonshadow, you have clearly indicated you don't like women, and now you're saying you don't much care for men... who do you like?"

... ... ...

BINGO!


You place good woman in the category of PIGS and I personally don't think that's right or even fair. Considering we're all PIGS as you clearly stated here why in the hell would you wish to be a woman if we're all so bad? I don't understand why'd you want to be placed in a category you find so disgusting in ever woman. They're are genuine souls out there not every woman is bad. Sometimes I think the men can be Blind and selfish a bit to see the good in a woman. They focus too much on her wrongs and point them out more than the good things about them. No I'm not saying any man deserves to be treated badly but either does a woman. I get taken for granted a lot by everyone but I'm not calling every single man a jerk. Sorry but I disagree with the terms that woman are PIGS. However I do agree that they're are woman who do the other things as stated about. Gold diggers and woman who don't care in regards to a man's feelings just that wallet. That to me makes woman like me a genuine soul look bad. I'm not the perfect person in this world but I do put up with a lot as you have.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by crfriend »

JennC03 wrote:
moonshadow wrote:
denimini wrote:We have to acknowledge the success of women in changing "Society" views to more positive terms applied to a broader choice of clothing. It was achieved by a large number of women breaking convention and demanding acceptance.
[...] This is why I get so nervous around women. [Women] are dangerous, they can chew [up a man] and spit [him] out, and society will just sit back and laugh while she does it.... and she can do it by proxy- not even have to dirty her hands.... Just make a couple of men think they are going to get a little nookie, and they'll step over their own mother.... Pigs.... they're all PIGS.

Men (in general) can be real idiots, and cowards. Very few, and I mean an extremely small number are truly brave "on their own".
You place good woman in the category of PIGS and I personally don't think that's right or even fair. Considering we're all PIGS as you clearly stated here why in the hell would you wish to be a woman if we're all so bad? I don't understand why'd you want to be placed in a category you find so disgusting in ever woman.
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I took the liberty of emending Moon's writing above to bring it more clearly into line with what I believe his intent was, and he was not calling women "pigs" at all, he was calling women "dangerous" -- and it was men he was calling "pigs", just as women tend to characterise them.

I'll second the observation of "dangerous", based on first-hand experience. If a man wants to do me violence he does it, and I see it coming and can defend myself; if a woman wants to do the same, she'll have it done by proxy and I'll not have a clue until it's too late. Men, who are creatures of pride by nature, find this sort of thing extremely offensive, and women get a societal pass on it and nobody thinks twice (save the woman's victim). I'll also posit that for every lecherous cad in the world, there exists a conniving licentious woman; we all have our bad spots and have likely done things we'd rather not have, but that does not the world make up. There is more good than evil out there. At least I hope so.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by skirtingtheissue »

dillon wrote:We all attach our own uses to terms, and for me, crossdresser evokes the image of a closeted male, possibly TG, who dresses as a female secretly, for sexual arousal, though never intending to step out in public. Transvestite, to me, implies a male who is probably TG, and dresses as a woman to be in public, perhaps as a matter of gender identity and/or sexual arousal. The transvestite tries to emulate a female as best he can, and worries that he will be discovered, but still desires to "pass" publically and takes the risks that provide satisfaction....
The crossdresser community puts both of these within the "crossdresser" label, and rejects the term "transvestite" as outmoded and pejorative. The more timid ones "dress as a female secretly" but not for sexual arousal, simply because they fear ridicule and embarrassment.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by dillon »

skirtingtheissue wrote:
dillon wrote:We all attach our own uses to terms, and for me, crossdresser evokes the image of a closeted male, possibly TG, who dresses as a female secretly, for sexual arousal, though never intending to step out in public. Transvestite, to me, implies a male who is probably TG, and dresses as a woman to be in public, perhaps as a matter of gender identity and/or sexual arousal. The transvestite tries to emulate a female as best he can, and worries that he will be discovered, but still desires to "pass" publically and takes the risks that provide satisfaction....
The crossdresser community puts both of these within the "crossdresser" label, and rejects the term "transvestite" as outmoded and pejorative. The more timid ones "dress as a female secretly" but not for sexual arousal, simply because they fear ridicule and embarrassment.
~shrugs~ I don't care to be hamstrung by silly debates over rhetoric when it was perfectly clear that nothing was said with offensive intent. I reflected the associations that I think many have with the terms. I think reality would dictate that rational people should not perpetually insist that every sensitivity be indulged. At some point they need to assess the context in which a term is used. Political correctness can be carried to a counterproductive extreme.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

dillon wrote:
Disaffected.citizen wrote:First post here. I read often.
dillon wrote:.... the fairer sex, ......
Although I am quoting Dillon, this is aimed at any and all who use this term; this is as sexist and discriminatory against men as the term as cross-dresser is to us. Think about the inference.

Please use woman/women.

Many (perhaps most) of us are discriminated against simply because we choose a slightly different lifestyle. In a domestic setting, by any other definition, we are often subjected to abuse. We have to "negotiate" to be allowed freedom. OK, so we're not in the same situation as those under repressive political regimes where, en-masse, we may be detained for our views, but nonetheless, we are denied rights simply because we are men.

The sadest point is that the authorities do not recognise the problem. Point of fact, that by failing to recognise it, they perpetuate and exacerbate it. I know for fact that at least one man was told to "man up and take it on the chin" and that he "should have picked a better person" when he sought help from the medical profession and legal system. Imagine they used such terms to a rape victim!
Welcome, Disaffected citizen. Your admonishment not withstanding, I'll reserve my right to employ my quaint euphemisms, especially when not tendered either maliciously or dismissively in the context of the post. I am not sure what discrimination you may have suffered, but will defer to your statement implying that you feel discriminated against. My life, however, has been by my own choices, and I don't view myself or my life through a lens of victimology. So forgive me if I do not always comprehend your particular POV.

And I heartily agree with you that we are certainly not in the same situation as those suffering under repressive regimes. I might even point to the lethal repression of LGBTQ orientation in Uganda and Rwanda as something unimaginable to most of us.

You are free, naturally, to opine as you please in these fora; I certainly do. But I would ask only the courtesy of refraining from eisegeting themes or intentions that don't exist. It leaves the impression of one who cannot see the forest because of all the trees. I am confident, too, that you can find many, many things in my posts far less politically correct than the expression "fairer sex" to criticize. :D Hopefully such critiques will reflect the entire post. Again, welcome to the Cafe.
Thank you for the welcome.

I read and respect (even agree) with much you post. I certainly didn't think you believe in women being fairer than men; I was just asking that we all think about the connotations of the usage of such terms.

It was just that term, which is used by all and sundry - my comment was to all and sundry. I only quoted you because it was in your post; I did not mean it as any kind of direct "dig" at you, just the term that we have all used at some time or other. I believe in true equality regardless of gender, sexuality, race, colour, or creed, not to mention age, disability and size (although for the sake of health, I do find myself somewhat critical of obesity - sorry). "Fairer sex" infers imbalance - which exists - but also demotes equality.

Anybody who is told what they can or can't wear by a partner is oppressed (abused) to some extent.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by dillon »

The term "fair", applied to a woman, is simply an old-fashioned reference to feminine beauty from a male POV, nothing more. Being an antiquated term, one may construe its use as patronizing, but chalk up my use of it to the fact that I'm an old guy with an old guy's vocabulary. I have little interest in being PC when nothing was said with malice. I'm still not sure why you find it offensive, however. Note meaning 5 in this link:

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/de ... glish/fair

As for the matter of abuse, perhaps one's feelings may be injured by words and attitudes, but on the scale of interpersonal abuse, sans bruises, broken bones, or legal complications - and opining personally here - I can scarcely fathom the idea of a man being abused by a woman in any enduring way. I suppose it is possible if she is substantially physically larger than you, though. But if you feel you're abused in a relationship, my suggestion is to rent a truck, pack up, and move on. If your partner thinks so little of you as to maintain a persistent pattern of ill behavior, you've little to lose is bidding her adieu. Testosterone yields remarkable recovery and transcendence power, if one elects not to wallow in past misery. Of course, if you're in some sort of codependent relationship, that lifestyle disorder may be the real source of difficulty. Whatever, I wish you peace-of-mind and some measure of relief of the stress in your personal life.
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