On crossdressing

Discussion of fashion elements and looks that are traditionally considered somewhat "femme" but are presented in a masculine context. This is NOT about transvestism or crossdressing.
pelmut
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by pelmut »

dillon wrote:I will remain reluctant to accept the term as applying to what I do. The online dictionaries often define it as "wearing the clothing of the opposite sex", but then when you look at the examples they give, they imply the intent to look like a woman. So the term itself may not bear any motivation or reason, but the inferrence - to impersonate a female - is pretty clear.
Exactly, that's why I was careful to say:
'true crossdressing' (wearing clothes which you associate with the opposite sex or gender and hope others will too)
The problem is that a lot of people can think of no other reason why you would be wearing clothes which look 'female' to them, so they incorrectly label you as a crossdresser.
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crfriend
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by crfriend »

pelmut wrote:The problem is that a lot of people can think of no other reason why you would be wearing clothes which look 'female' to them, so they incorrectly label you as a crossdresser.
This will be unavoidable in a good many situations, but where we may be able to exert some level of control over the characterisation, why shouldn't we?

If we get a chance to interact with someone, we have the ability to change their perceptions. If we make a compelling argument -- either verbally or non-verbally -- that our attire is entirely normal and appropriate, the stigma of "crossdressing" (and all its rotten connotations) will simply vanish. In the process, we will have exposed somebody to something new and unexpected (until, that is, it becomes old hat, at which time it will have become "normal", with all the baggage that "normal" carries). We won't win all of these -- nobody "wins" all the time, but if we can take the game 50% of the time we're well ahead of the curve and the notion might come up in conversation later on in a positive light because, whether we like it or not, we do get talked about. I'd rather it be in a positive light rather than something about "that crazy tranny".

So, yes, we are engaged in "social engineering" here, and if we try to delude ourselves that we're not we're ignoring reality.

But, if you're happy with the "orthodox crossdresser" bucket and like being in it, feel free to dwell there -- along with much other unwholesomeness.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Kilted_John »

What Dillon said.

Labels = stereotypes/definitions.

No thanks.

Those who want to call themselves CD, that's fine, just don't call me one, ok? Sure, there are times when I may be wearing an outfit that's 90% female, but I don't try to talk in a female voice, nor do I wear makeup, augment my hips, boobs (yes, I have'em, but I don't make them bigger than they actually are), or shave my face. I also don't try to make a certain area flat in appearance.

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JeffB1959
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by JeffB1959 »

Kilted_John wrote:What Dillon said.

Labels = stereotypes/definitions.

No thanks.

Those who want to call themselves CD, that's fine, just don't call me one, ok? Sure, there are times when I may be wearing an outfit that's 90% female, but I don't try to talk in a female voice, nor do I wear makeup, augment my hips, boobs (yes, I have'em, but I don't make them bigger than they actually are), or shave my face. I also don't try to make a certain area flat in appearance.

-J
Well, I wear women's clothes from head to toe on my outings, including shoes, hosiery, jewelry, even a handbag (I never leave the house without a purse). But that's as far as I go as well. However, I do shave because after twenty years in the Navy, I prefer being clean shaven all the time, and that suits me better on my expeditions. I don't make a big deal out of labels, I think of myself as a "fashion freestyler", not a crossdresser.
I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Kilted_John »

JeffB1959 wrote: Well, I wear women's clothes from head to toe on my outings, including shoes, hosiery, jewelry, even a handbag (I never leave the house without a purse). But that's as far as I go as well. However, I do shave because after twenty years in the Navy, I prefer being clean shaven all the time, and that suits me better on my expeditions. I don't make a big deal out of labels, I think of myself as a "fashion freestyler", not a crossdresser.
Exactly. Plus, with respect to the facial hair, it does get kinda warm in the summer with wookie face going on. I do tend to keep it quite a bit shorter in the summer (#2 trim usually). Otherwise, I begin to cook.

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Skirted since 2/2002, kilted 8/2002-8/2011, and dressed since 9/2013...
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Caultron
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Caultron »

What's wrong with being a crossdresser?

Because isn't that what we all sorta do, even if less than 100%?
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by dillon »

Caultron wrote:What's wrong with being a crossdresser?

Because isn't that what we all sorta do, even if less than 100%?
It would be easy to answer that if there was a really clear definition of crossdresser. My association of the term was a man, perhaps closeted trans-, who wished to look like a woman, though realizing he wouldn't "pass"; therefore, I associated the term with the man who secretly tries on his wife's clothing, maybe wears a wig and makeup, but never in public. That's why, for right or wrong, I want no association with the term.

I borrow heavily from "across the aisle". But I never try to appear as though I AM from "across the aisle," and thats my personal association with the term, and I think that is true for most in my age bracket. I don't know how those 20 years younger perceive the term, but it really doesn't matter. I don't want it applied to me. Period.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Fred in Skirts »

I have to agree with moonshadow. The clothes I wear are mine I bought them therefore they are menswear. While I also wear dresses at home I wear skirts in public. I do not try to be a woman because I am not a woman I am a straight man.

In doing some research a while back I found an interesting little tid-bit. Over 80 percent of the male population of the world wear skirts, kilts, robes, dresses, and other bits of clothing that in some way resembles a skirt. :o They are called by as many names as there are languages. SO Why are we so labeled as Cross-dressers :?: ask your neighbor and he probably will not be able to give you a straight answer.

Just my farthings worth!! :lol:

Fred
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by moonshadow »

Thanks Fred!

I was reading the reddit post that was discussed in the "news and advocacy" forum, and I came across this little tidbit in the comments that I personally find very thought provoking and straight forward... I shall quote:
[–]Beastender_Tartine 5 points 4 days ago

Because every time this comes up in places like this it gets huge support. However, when questions like "Would you ever date a crossdresser?" come up in Ask Women or Ask Reddit or basically any place other then here, the answer is a resounding "NOPE!". I mean, it tends to be polite and all "I'm ok with it for someone else but not for my partner" but the result is the same. A guy in feminine clothes is going to get crap and maybe violence from other guys, and mostly be avoided by women. It's still got isolating stigmas.

permalinkparent

[–]dmanww 1 point 2 days ago

Does a woman wearing pants count as a crossdresser?

permalinkparent

[–]Beastender_Tartine 1 point 1 day ago

Generally no, as I'm sure you know. It does raise an interesting question though, doesn't it. At one time the answer would have been yes, but then enough women decided that they liked pants enough to crossdress often enough that it became OK. Now there are pants for women, that should a man wear them, he would be crossdressing.

Clothing is only gendered in the first place because we say it is. For example if a women wore a mans kilt, she would be crossdressing, wouldn't she? Even though a kilt is just a style of skirt. What if there is a pair of plain black, baggy sweat pants that are sold in a women's clothing store as women's clothes. They would fit a man pretty much like men's pants would, and would be more or less indistinguishable from men's, yet if a man wore them he's crossdressing. To push the point further, if someone were to make a pair of underwear that was all high cut, with lace and bows, and more or less indistinguishable from a pair of panties, but sell them as men's panties, would a women be crossdressing if she wore them?

Literally the only thing that makes any piece of clothing gendered in the first place is that someone said it was.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by phathack »

The other day I wore a skirt when I sent to have lunch with a friend.

At lunch we overheard a guy make a comment about "that crazy tyranny over there".
We looked at that table and he continued, "yes you in the skirt."

We looked at each other and chuckled, the joke was on them as the woman I was with, who was wearing jeans and a logo T-shirt, is in fact a post operative trans woman, I'm a hetero male.

We joked about the comment and both decided it was best to ignore the ignorant comments and get one with our lunch.

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Re: On crossdressing

Post by moonshadow »

phathack wrote:The other day I wore a skirt when I sent to have lunch with a friend.

At lunch we overheard a guy make a comment about "that crazy tyranny over there".
We looked at that table and he continued, "yes you in the skirt."

We looked at each other and chuckled, the joke was on them as the woman I was with, who was wearing jeans and a logo T-shirt, is in fact a post operative trans woman, I'm a hetero male.

We joked about the comment and both decided it was best to ignore the ignorant comments and get one with our lunch.
You did well to take the high road. Often times it's best to ignore as those type of people are just angling for a physical confrontation... to demonstrate their "manliness" by harassing someone they view as inferior. "Look at me, I'm a big man... I need to belittle people who don't act exactly as I do, because I am the alpha, and I feel the constant need to reassert my manliness, because deep down I am so terribly insecure."

There's no hope for those people.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by Gusto10 »

This discussion and other have ,made me browse through the pictures posted, not only on this site but also in Flickr.
Looking at these pictures one sees that in first instance many go for kilts or the likes thereof. Than the following step is seemingly the denim skirt, preverbly with pockets. Mostly in solid colours and also kneelength. Than the next step is lighter colours, even flouwery, mini, micro or ankle length with tanktops with space for bras. A number continu on to tights and heels in public (my own pictures are only with the walls of my house) like the public knows from the gay communitie drag queens.
Playing the devils advocate, if one wants general acceptance of the general public (most can't think for themselves) remain with the kneelengths, kneehigh socks, sturdy shoes and solid colours. Do also be aware of colour combinations, as some combine things in such a manner that I presume they are colourblind. Try to send the message to the public: I'm a man and just want to wear what is comfortable without seeking a confrontation. Eventhough women immitate men most of the time in the way of dressing, they (most of them) also use a double standard. Do we want to present our selves as a dragqueen? Guess not.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by crfriend »

Gusto10 wrote:This discussion and other have ,made me browse through the pictures posted, not only on this site but also in Flickr.
Looking at these pictures one sees that in first instance many go for kilts or the likes thereof. Than the following step is seemingly the denim skirt, preverbly with pockets. Mostly in solid colours and also kneelength. Than the next step is lighter colours, even flouwery, mini, micro or ankle length with tanktops with space for bras. A number continu on to tights and heels in public (my own pictures are only with the walls of my house) like the public knows from the gay communitie drag queens.
As with most everything else, I would suggest care be taken with how one interprets the various imagery portrayed on the Internet. We may be unaware of the motives of the model just as we may be unaware of the motives of the poster (if they are not the same individual). We must also take care to understand that "drag" is best viewed not as an everyday happenstance, but rather as a specialised form of performance art.

With the above under consideration, we must also take into account the nature of the garments in question and the local culture. The garments, save until remarkably recently, were wither bespoke (read, "potentially very expensive") or came from the women's side of the store out of expediency. Colour, as well as fabric selection, will be heavily influenced by local culture. If local custom dictates denim and bland colours, that's what men will tend to gravitate to; if blue denim dominates, nobody is going to choose red velvet.

Further complicating the matter is that most men have had anything resembling "fashion sense" (although in this context, "style sense" is more correct) beaten out of them for generations. Because of this, many make suboptimal decisions when it comes to putting an ensemble together. This is unfortunate, but entirely expected; fortunately, learning how to put together cogent looks is possible, it just takes applying one's self to the task.

So, with the above taken in aggregate, it's hardly surprising that one sees the sorts of imagery that one does. It's all down to careful social conditioning.

It's also worth noting that most members of the general public are more attuned to our behaviours and demeanour than our clothing (unless it's way over the top). If we present as confident well-adjusted people in almost all cases we are received as such. There will always be a few corner-cases where that doesn't happen, but there is usually pathology involved in that and it's not on our side.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by oldsalt1 »

Simply put, Except for the extremes of wearing wigs makeup etc. cross dressing is a result of labels. If you are a man and wear clothing marked "ladies" you can be called a cross dresser. A man wearing a kilt
is not labeled a cross dresser because the kilt was made for a man. The same man wearing a skirt same length etc is a cross dresser because it came from the ladies rack. Its very simple ( RIGHT) all we have to do is to get the manufacturer to size and label these very same skirts as men's and the problem will go away.
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Re: On crossdressing

Post by JohnH »

Kilted_John wrote:What Dillon said.

Labels = stereotypes/definitions.

No thanks.

Those who want to call themselves CD, that's fine, just don't call me one, ok? Sure, there are times when I may be wearing an outfit that's 90% female, but I don't try to talk in a female voice, nor do I wear makeup, augment my hips, boobs (yes, I have'em, but I don't make them bigger than they actually are), or shave my face. I also don't try to make a certain area flat in appearance.

-J
Yes, I have boom-booms, hips, and long hair. I frequently get read as a woman, but my trying to talk in a female voice is a lost cause since I have a deep voice. I sing down to Bb1, two ledger lines below the bass staff. And I like my clean shaven look. I also hate the terms of crossdresser or transvestite.

As far as keeping a certain area flat below the waist there is not much to cause a bulge as my dear sweet wife has said to me, "Your tits are bigger than your dick!"

John
Last edited by JohnH on Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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