Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby SkirtsDad » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:54 pm

moonshadow wrote:Additionally S.D.,

And I mean this with all due respect, but why do you get all bent out of shape when someone suggest that there might just be a bias against men in western culture?

I will comment where I feel that there has been a misrepresentation, and that is by whichever side, and that includes bringing attention to domestic violence against men, or rape against men which are so often under reported.... one of the reason it is under reported is men are reluctant to come forward as men are supposed to "Man up" and get on with life.

moonshadow wrote:However to say that men always have the upper hand and never experience prejudice, injustice, a bias against them just because they're men is just plain wrong.

Perhaps it worse un the USA, but certainly I could find instances here that would also support that. Child custody cases used to be extremely biased against the man due to a large part to the ageing, traditionally minded judges that saw the women's place as being in the home bringing up the children. It's not perfect now but it has changed a lot, for instance, for quite a few years the courts have been required to put children's wishes high on the objectives list for a settlement.

Where I do object is where some people here try to create a case for bias against men where there was never one on the agenda. Not forcing schoolgirls to wear skirts is about giving them their dignity (that boys already have) and allowing the to wear what most women (and men) wear every day of the week. It is not about giving them a fashion choice and not giving one to boys. Where is this biased against boys? Moreover, rather that embracing the moves towards gender-neutral uniforms people simply complain that it's because of tg or boys still can't wear them because of society. How is the school at fault for that?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/03/sex-discrimination-schoolgirls-skirts-girls-trousers-equality-act-2010

moonshadow wrote:Here's an actual example. A coworker was telling me a story the other day about how he got rear ended by a cute teenage girl while he was sitting at a stop light. A full on impact. The investigation revealed that the girls cell phone was laying in the floor board of the drivers seat with a text bubble active.

You know what happened to the girl? Not a damned thing! The Tennessee cop didn't even press charges. Wonder how that would have went down if it were a man texting?

What about if it's a female police officer? Relatively, I think that policing is reasonably unbiased in the UK. It almost certainly wouldn't have been 30 years ago but if I look at today I would say that I know more or less equal numbers of men an women that have been stopped and fined or banned here.

moonshadow wrote:You might find this interesting, if you're open minded enough to believe that not all women are faultless:
http://abusedmen.com/the-whole-truth-about-domestic-violence/

I'm not familiar with Philip W. Cook but I have done quite a bit of reading on the topic in the past. The article looks interesting having taken a brief look at it.

moonshadow wrote:I tried being a feminist. I keep getting kicked out of their club when I mention some man who got the short end of the stick on a matter, as though to even suggest such a thing is a blaspheme among them (feminist)

There are feminists and there are feminists and they don't all get on with one another. Second wave feminist really do not like third wave in my experience. I know many activist feminists but not one is a 'man hater' and if I do think they are overlooking unfairness towards men I will pull them up on it.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby SkirtsDad » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:34 pm

crfriend wrote:New England which, even to this day, has a very strong Puritanical outlook on things.
Puritanical can be problematic - Faith schools are more of an issue here but even they are coming under pressure.

crfriend wrote:In the hypothetical case above -- that of a boy willingly wearing a skirt to school by choice -- how much grief, up to and including physical assault, do you suppose the lad would get? Would he receive the support of the school administration, the general public, or the law? I rather doubt it.
There really should not be a support issue from the school as all schools by now, I presume, have a bullying policy in place. My son was bullied by older girls. As you mentioned with the issues of boys and silence, it was a while before the school found out. Once they did they soon sorted it. He wasn't looked at unfavourably because he was a boy and they were girls. Sadly, the same is not always true of parent's perspectives.

It will be interesting to see what my friends child does next year when he fully integrates into the school system. I'm not sure if he is in pre-school or reception year, but recently he's taken to wearing skirts and dresses to school. He just beams all over his face when he puts them on, and who can blame him :-)
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby crfriend » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:49 pm

SkirtsDad wrote:
crfriend wrote:New England which, even to this day, has a very strong Puritanical outlook on things.
Puritanical can be problematic - Faith schools are more of an issue here but even they are coming under pressure.

This permeates everything in New England, not just "faith-based" enterprises. Even the criminal justice [0] system is rife with the problem -- that remains a system that Cotton Mather would be familiar with.
There really should not be a support issue from the school as all schools by now, I presume, have a bullying policy in place. My son was bullied by older girls. As you mentioned with the issues of boys and silence, it was a while before the school found out. Once they did they soon sorted it. He wasn't looked at unfavourably because he was a boy and they were girls. Sadly, the same is not always true of parent's perspectives.

Indeed, and those need to be taken into account as well. It's a messy situation. Sadly, much bullying is tolerated -- and, hence, quietly condoned -- as a way to "socialise" children. It's a bad plan, though, and reeks of "Lord of the Flies" thinking.

I'm glad that things went well for your son.
It will be interesting to see what my friends child does next year when he fully integrates into the school system. I'm not sure if he is in pre-school or reception year, but recently he's taken to wearing skirts and dresses to school. He just beams all over his face when he puts them on, and who can blame him :-)

Indeed. I wish him well, but his elders should be on the lookout for things that might harm him.


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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby moonshadow » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:02 pm

SkirtsDad wrote:I will comment where I feel that there has been a misrepresentation, and that is by whichever side, and that includes bringing attention to domestic violence against men, or rape against men which are so often under reported.... one of the reason it is under reported is men are reluctant to come forward as men are supposed to "Man up" and get on with life.


That's fair. And I'll admit, as I've done so in the past that in many cases like this men in general, are their own worst enemies, and by that statement, I mean not men, individually. For it is the individual man who finds himself in a hopeless situation when the whole world, males and females leave him out in the cold. One thing to women's credit: They do tend to look out for one another. Men on the other hand do not.

I'll also admit the reason for this seems to be tied to the patriarchal paradigm most of the world is gripped in. The view that "men can take care of themselves, but women need support" is in and of itself a very anti-feminist statement, and is also degrading to women in addition to being detrimental to the poor solitary man who finds himself on the losing end of a given situation.

This is illustrated in the video I edited in above, where a male cop admits to turning and walking away from a clear issue of a man being assaulted by a woman.

The bottom line is the individual man has no support, not even from his own sex, because we are expected to "man up".

Perhaps I was wrong to generalize a jab at "feminist" in my last post. For I too have had very enlightening and productive conversations with feminist on an individual basis. But for some reason, as a group, the feminist movement seems to be very irrational more often than not. I suppose every sub group of people is like this to an extent. Even red-necks, taken one at a time can seem to be pretty reasonable. However when in large groups they can be down right obnoxious. I think this may just be a human phenomenon.
"We all have the tendency to make simple things difficult, but the spirit that abides within us achieves its own ends by making all difficult things simple."
-Manly Palmer Hall
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby Disaffected.citizen » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:16 am

SkirtsDad wrote:What about if it's a female police officer? Relatively, I think that policing is reasonably unbiased in the UK. It almost certainly wouldn't have been 30 years ago but if I look at today I would say that I know more or less equal numbers of men an women that have been stopped and fined or banned here.

Although policing in the UK might be relatively unbiased for motoring offences, it most certainly is not for the majority of other matters for investigation. Police investigations are the entry point into the "justice system" for criminal matters and their bias and discrimination then extends through the Crown Prosecution Service and into the Magistrates and Judiciary.

The same bias pervades the Civil Courts, too. Please do not be so niaive as to think otherwise; if you seek information within the public domain it is relatively easy to find evidence to support such thesis.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby Stu » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:40 am

At least until a decade ago, the UK police were, for the most part, highly ethical people and certainly unbiased and open-minded in investigations.

I have neen living abroad since then, so I can't comment on whether and how things have changed since then.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby DonP » Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:18 pm

I really avoided reading any subtext into the situation. I saw it as boys using the situation provided as an excuse to wear skirts. I'm sure that once they've had the opportunity to wear a skirt in public, the seed has been planted. It can only lead to more males wanting to wear skirts. It may not be the seismic change that we are hoping for, but it's a step in the right direction.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby Sinned » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:45 am

With respect DonP, the boys may NOT have used it as an excuse to wear a skirt but just to participate in an act of rebellion which young people are apt to do. There are other cases of boys wearing skirts recently [0] and there doesn't appear to have been a mass wearing of skirts by boys! Whether they perceived any benefit in the comfort of wearing a skirt or just treated it as a bit of fun is, of course, in their minds only. Likely it well make no difference to their wearing skirts on a regular basis but seeds, if and when planted, often take a long time to germinate or can spring up fairly quickly. It took a long time with me. Although I had tried on MOH's skirts [1] sometimes when she was out it was relatively recently that I decided to wear skirts as part of my wardrobe. Let's hope anyway.

[0] To protest against being able to wear shorts in hot weather, for example.
[1] At the time we had similar waist sizes.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby DonP » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:41 am

True, it MAY have been more rebellion than skirt wearing for fun; but getting them into skirts has got to be a positive step. That's all I'm saying. It might take a while to come back around for them, it did for me. Kids that age
don't generally like to stand out.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby Caultron » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:30 pm

DonP wrote:True, it MAY have been more rebellion than skirt wearing for fun; but getting them into skirts has got to be a positive step...

That's my take as well. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby Stu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:04 pm

The boys will, for the first time in their lives, experience the "feel" of a skirt and that is a double-edged sword in a way. On the one hand, they do feel light and airy and gentle on the legs, conveying a unique experience of "freedom". On the minus side, they take a bit of getting used to if you haven't been grown up with them. They can be limiting in terms of movement, depending upon the style. Sitting down takes a bit more thought and you have to be conscious that you have to manage the garment when seated so it doesn't ride up. When standing after sitting, you often have to straighten the garment. So the pleasantness of the experience comes at the price of a tad more effort. The question is, therefore, will the boys decide "Hey! This feels great! I want to wear these again!" - or will they decide they felt awkwards and the things are more trouble than they are worth.
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Re: Boys wore skirts to school in Lawrence, Ma

Postby crfriend » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:27 pm

Stu wrote:The question is, therefore, will the boys decide "Hey! This feels great! I want to wear these again!" - or will they decide they felt awkwards and the things are more trouble than they are worth.

This is the clincher.

The first time I put on a skirt I was captivated by the way it felt, the way it moved, and the way it made me feel. But, yes, I was immediately aware of some of those "limitations" that could, and did, make me feel awkward.

The answer to that is practise. Learn the way of the garment before venturing out into the world around you. Gain confidence in managing the garment. "Breeze happens". Be prepared by knowing what to do and when. Once one has the basics, then it's out the door and away you go with hopefully little looking back.

Guys can learn to handle skirts. We're proof of that here. We just need to take the time to integrate everything into our minds in a short time that the girls have (possibly) had their entire lives to. The nice thing is that, for the most part, the learning-curve is not all that steep.
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