More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonconfor

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More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonconfor

Postby Caultron » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:05 pm

A UCLA telephone health survey asked California teenagers about their gender expression, "How do you think other people at school would describe you?"

21 percent answered. "equally masculine and feminine, " (androgynous)
6 percent answered, "mostly masculine," or, "mostly feminine," (highly gender nonconforming).

Unfortunately, the survey went into no further detail.

http://www.capradio.org/articles/2017/1 ... udy-shows/
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Wonderful Electric » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:46 pm

Gender is a social construct. A decade from now we will see that there was a gender revolution.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Caultron » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:12 pm

Wonderful Electric wrote:Gender is a social construct. A decade from now we will see that there was a gender revolution.

That would be interesting indeed.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:34 pm

Wonderful Electric wrote:Gender is a social construct. A decade from now we will see that there was a gender revolution.

Strictly speaking, gender is how the individual feels they fit into society, it is an innate property over which they have no control and which they cannot change. Gender presentation is what that person does in response to their gender, which is not always the same for the same gender because it depends on the society in which they find themselves. Some may even present as a gender they are not - often because of the pressure society puts on them to appear to be the gender that is usually associated with their sex, rather than the gender they actually are.

Now some of the more enlightened sections of society are putting less pressure on people to conform, 'gender-variant' people feel more able to tell the truth without fear of retribution and a truer picture of the wide gender spectrum is beginning to emerge.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby crfriend » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:53 am

pelmut wrote:Now some of the more enlightened sections of society are putting less pressure on people to conform, 'gender-variant' people feel more able to tell the truth without fear of retribution and a truer picture of the wide gender spectrum is beginning to emerge.

Indeed, and this ought to be lauded, but what of the female who identifies as a woman yet wears male-marketed clothing and the male who identifies as a man who simply prefers female-marketed clothing? I feel that those constituents are going to get ignored by the "New Sensibilities", and I also suspect that those constituents are vastly more common than the current press attention gives credence to.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby denimini » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:59 am

Great that gender fluidity is now being recognised and respected.
One would expect clothing choice would be an easier concept for society to get their head around.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby moonshadow » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:46 pm

I'd like to see a world where we don't have to label ourselves this or that, and we don't have to have our actions, style, or destiny determined by what's between our legs. This is already virtually the case for 51% of the population (women), sure would be nice if men could catch up.

I guess this is a step in the right direction...? *shrugs*

I know a lot of girls who are either gender nonconforming, or outright trans-men.... funny. All they did was cut their hair really short, and maybe adopt a male name, other than that, they look and act the same! :?
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:19 pm

moonshadow wrote:...I know a lot of girls who are either gender nonconforming, or outright trans-men.... funny. All they did was cut their hair really short, and maybe adopt a male name, other than that, they look and act the same! :?

That's almost certainly why the statistics appear to show a much higher number of transwomen than transmen. If a woman feels her gender is masculine, society tolerates her fulfilling a male rôle without demanding that she has to have her body and legal status modified to make her indistinguishable from a natal man. For many potential transmen, that is enough and they don't feel driven to undergo a full transition.

If a man feels his gender is feminine and tries to fulfill a female rôle, he is ridiculed, abused, threatened, driven to suicide or even murdered unless he can fully transition and become indistingushable from a natal female. Even then, she [now the correct gender] has to keep her past a secret, otherwise she could be hounded by the press, pushed out of her employment (legally in some US states and illegally in the UK) abused by neighbours and, in some places, not allowed to use any public toilet for fear of being prosecuted for using one or being beaten up for using the other.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Grok » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:40 am

Well, people have been expected to fit into a very narrow, rigid (and unrealistic) gender binary. And society has been willing to force a square peg into a round hole.

And by forcing people into the closet, society seemed far more monolithic than it really was.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Caultron » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:47 am

pelmut wrote:...If a man feels his gender is feminine and tries to fulfill a female rôle, he is ridiculed, abused, threatened, driven to suicide or even murdered unless he can fully transition and become indistingushable from a natal female...

That seems way overstated to me. I've never heard of anyone in the Western world being forced into a sex change.

I have read than in some countries in the Middle East, homosexuality is punishable by death but you can beat the rap by getting a government-paid sex change. But I never of any such thing in Europe, the Americas, the Orient, or Australia.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:10 am

Caultron wrote:
pelmut wrote:...If a man feels his gender is feminine and tries to fulfill a female rôle, he is ridiculed, abused, threatened, driven to suicide or even murdered unless he can fully transition and become indistingushable from a natal female...

That seems way overstated to me. I've never heard of anyone in the Western world being forced into a sex change.

They are not directly forced into it and for many of them it is simply the key to spending the rest of their lives at peace with their bodies; but for those who don't want to go all the way, the social situation is much more difficult for transwomen than it is for transmen. How long do you think a visibly half-transitioned transwoman would survive unmolested in some of the southern US states or the 'sink' housing estates of some UK cities? We have the Transgender Day of Remembrance each year to remember those who were murdered because they were trans - and nearly all of them are transwomen.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Stevie D » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:17 am

Caultron wrote:
pelmut wrote:...If a man feels his gender is feminine and tries to fulfill a female rôle, he is ridiculed, abused, threatened, driven to suicide or even murdered unless he can fully transition and become indistingushable from a natal female...

That seems way overstated to me. I've never heard of anyone in the Western world being forced into a sex change.

I don't think "being forced into a sex change" is what Pelmut actually meant. Instead, I think he was pointing out that for a male-to-female person there is still a risk, in some areas and perpetrated by pig-ignorant individuals, of being "ridiculed, abused, threatened, driven to suicide or even murdered" unless that person passes 100% as female.

By contrast, a masculine-presenting or butch woman just carries on living their life normally with (usually) nary a second glance from others.

Sometimes life is shitty.

Edited to add:
I see Pelmut has responded as I was writing my own post. I think we are broadly in agreement!
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Caultron » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:59 pm

pelmut wrote:...How long do you think a visibly half-transitioned transwoman would survive unmolested in some of the southern US states or the 'sink' housing estates of some UK cities?...

Well, the first question is whether we here are that - partially-transitioned transwomen. Most of us vehemently deny so and will never seek out sex-reassignment surgery, but I guess it depends on one's definition. Here I sit typing this in a black pencil skirt, black tights, black 3" heels, earrings, and a padded bra and claiming not to be the least bit cross-dresser, transvestite, or transsexual in any way. Hmm. Perhaps those are stereotypes I don't what to be dropped into but there still seems to be something going on. Why do I like my reflection in the mirror?

I'm not aware of the details of any murders or assaults on transsexuals or other gender-nonconforming individuals but I suppose they happen. It would be interesting to know the motives of some actual attackers and any perceived provocations by some actual victims.

It's easy to imagine some gay drag queen persistently propositioning some drunken truck driver late at night in a redneck bar, and the two of them going out back, and then truck driver then beating up the drag queen, but that's a very stale stereotype that I suspect accounts for a very small number of actual occurrences. Open violence in everyday situations is pretty rare.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby pelmut » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:02 pm

Caultron wrote:
pelmut wrote:...How long do you think a visibly half-transitioned transwoman would survive unmolested in some of the southern US states or the 'sink' housing estates of some UK cities?...

Well, the first question is whether we here are that - partially-transitioned transwomen.

Some are, most don't appear to be.
Caultron wrote: Most of us vehemently deny so and will never seek out sex-reassignment surgery, but I guess it depends on one's definition. Here I sit typing this in a black pencil skirt, black tights, black 3" heels, earrings, and a padded bra and claiming not to be the least bit cross-dresser, transvestite, or transsexual in any way.

Ask if you would feel more comfortable with yourself if you had been born female; I don't mean whether you would have had an easier or more interesting life, but who you feel you really should be. If the honest deep-down answer is 'no', you aren't transgender. (By the way, you don't need to tell anyone the answer.) The thing which clinched it for me was realising that all my childhood heroes had actually been the heroines of the books or plays, they were the people I identified with.

Caultron wrote:I'm not aware of the details of any murders or assaults on transsexuals or other gender-nonconforming individuals but I suppose they happen. It would be interesting to know the motives of some actual attackers and any perceived provocations by some actual victims.


Here is part of a list from 2017, the full list is on Wikipedia, a few of them are robbery-related crimes, but the majority are because the victims were trans.
2017
United States
Sean Ryan Hake, a 23-year-old transgender man was shot three times by police
Jamie Lee Wounded Arrow, a 28-year-old Native American trans woman was found murdered in her apartment
Mesha Caldwell, a 41-year-old black trans woman, was found shot to death
Jojo Striker, a 23-year-old trans woman of color, was found shot to death
Jaquarrius Holland, an 18-year-old black trans woman, was shot
Tiara Lashaytheboss Richmond, a 24-year-old black trans woman[...] was shot
Chyna Doll Dupree, a black trans woman, also known as Chyna Gibson, was shot
Ciara McElveen, a 26-year-old black trans woman, was stabbed
Alphonza Watson, a 38-year-old black trans woman, was shot in the stomach
Chay Reed, a 28-year-old transgender woman of color, was shot
Kenneth Bostick, a 59-year-old black trans person identifying as male, was found with severe injurie[...] and later died
Sherrell Faulkner, a 46-year-old black trans woman, died on 16 May from injuries sustained during an attack the previous year
Kenne McFadden, a 27-year old black trans woman, was found in the San Antonio River
Kendra Marie Adams, a 28-year old trans woman of color, was found [with] burns on her body
Ava Le’Ray Barrin, a 17-year old trans girl, was shot and killed
Ebony Morgan, a 28-year-old trans woman of color, was found shot
TeeTee Dangerfield, a 32-year-old transgender woman was found shot multiple times
Gwenevere River Song, a 26-year-old person identifying as femandrogyne was shot
Kiwi Herring, a 30-year-old transwoman of color was shot by police
Pepper K, aka Phoenix, a 33-year-old trans person was killed by another inmate while incarcerated
Ally Steinfeld 17-year-old trans person went missing early September. Ally's body was found stabbed and burned
Kashmire Redd 28-year-old transgender man was stabbed to death
Derricka Banner 26-year-old trans woman of color was shot and killed
Scout Schultz 21 year-old non binary intersex student at Georgia Tech was shot and killed by police
Stephanie Montez 47-year-old trans woman was shot multiple times
Candace Towns 30-year-old trans woman of color was found dead

One of the saddest was Leelah Alcorn in 2014, she was driven to suicide by her parents sending her to a religious bigot to be 'cured'.

Caultron wrote:It's easy to imagine some gay drag queen persistently propositioning some drunken truck driver late at night in a redneck bar, and the two of them going out back, and then truck driver then beating up the drag queen, but that's a very stale stereotype that I suspect accounts for a very small number of actual occurrences. Open violence in everyday situations is pretty rare.

Gays and drag queens have nothing whatsoever to do with transgender people transitioning. Gay is a sexual preference which is not connected with gender - and drag queens are professional performers who parody women.
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Re: More Than A Quarter Of California Teens Are Gender Nonco

Postby Caultron » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:34 pm

pelmut wrote:...How long do you think a visibly half-transitioned transwoman would survive unmolested in some of the southern US states or the 'sink' housing estates of some UK cities?..

Let me try again. I don't know how many would survive unmolested, but I would hope it's no more likely for transwomen than for anyone else, which would optimally be zero.
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