Rigid gender stereotypes

[Caultron]

What are some gender expressions for men you believe are more constrained now than in the past?

We can start with the ability to be empathetic and to cry from time to time. We can then move to an expectation of belligerence as opposed to civility. Or to strike first (frequently physically) instead of negotiating.

You think it was more accepted in the past for men to be empathic, to cry from time to time, and to be civil?

When?

[stevelous]

I, for one, hate the way men are supposed to act while out in public. Forced to be uncaring, hard nosed and often rude. 'I reject that reality and substitute my own' to coin a phrase. In my case I identify as Steve, sometime a bit masculine sometimes a bit feminine but thats me.

I enjoy engineering, seeing the results of humankinds achievements, just recently I spent a week in Felixstowe, Suffolk, UK watching the comings and goings of the container ships (those things are big), but also enjoyed the beauty of the nature reserve close by.

Enjoying the finer things, such as art, music and the company of my Cats, gives me so much pleasure. Feeling fine cloth againt my skin is something I could never give up. On my bedside table I have 3 display China dolls that I rescued from my wife who had just dumped them on the floor where they were in danger of being broken. I nowbthink of them as mine, keep them dusted and on occasion talk to them (they know how to keep a secret).

In short I cannot see why we have such rigidly defined ideas of gender based solely on sex.

[Caultron]

I, for one, have never felt any pressure to be uncaring, hard nosed, or rude. Similarly, I've never been criticized for being caring or friendly. And I've found that caring and friendly nearly always work out better in the end.

[Taj]

Agreeing with Caultron, being a gentleman doesn't mean having to be macho. Therein may lie a bit of a secret, being accepted may depend somewhat on the company one keeps. I've met other caring and sensitive men even on construction sites. Some conceal it under a tough veneer, which is what we'd like to avoid feeling necessary.

[crfriend]

[... B]eing a gentleman doesn't mean having to be macho.

Sometimes, in fact, it's necessary for a gentleman to be non-macho -- and especially not be stereotypically macho. The problem is that gentlemen are getting squeezed out of the picture by the stereotypes and the caricatures. Note that a large percentage of true gentlemen are bachelors; women seem to select them out of the dance, perhaps perceiving them as weak or effeminate. That facet alone is a strong incentive to "harden up" and adhere to the modern stereotype.

Therein may lie a bit of a secret, being accepted may depend somewhat on the company one keeps. I've met other caring and sensitive men even on construction sites. Some conceal it under a tough veneer, which is what we'd like to avoid feeling necessary.

Indeed, and I regard it as sad that many of us do need to keep our gentility under a blanket lest anyone else sense it, perceive it as weakness, and try to take advantage of it. However, that's much akin to "hiding your light under a bucket"; it's double-edged.

[Taj]

Very much so, crfriend. I try to keep my social life among men who might be considered gentleman, but they seem to be getting harder to come by.

[Grok]

The problem is that gentlemen are getting squeezed out of the picture by the stereotypes and the caricatures. Note that a large percentage of true gentlemen are bachelors; women seem to select them out of the dance, perhaps perceiving them as weak or effeminate. That facet alone is a strong incentive to "harden up" and adhere to the modern stereotype..

In effect. a Pro-Bozo filter, filtering out the non-Bozos.

I think that those who are willing to try skirts tend to be older men...because they have less to lose. If a young man wants to start a family, he has to appear to conform to the stereotypes of traditional masculinity. This, I believe, is the first hoop that women require a man has to jump through.

[moonshadow]

And so, the practice of a man wearing a skirt is bound to decrease the likelihood that he will find himself in jail down the road as he has a better chance of pairing up with a more level headed woman rather than your typical run of the mill trailer trash.

Of course most men won't heed this advice, opting rather to stick with the status quo position of ultra machoism. Meh... whatever, it's his life. Have fun paying child support for life big Bubba....

[crfriend]

And so, the practice of a man wearing a skirt is bound to decrease the likelihood that he will find himself in jail down the road as he has a better chance of pairing up with a more level headed woman rather than your typical run of the mill trailer trash.

I aver this to not be the case as I found out the hard way when my ex-'s brain died. Rational, level-headed, and intelligent women are just as able to call the cops as any bimbo. And once the accusation is in, the guy is guilty as charged unless he can successfully prove the negative and assert his innocence.

[crfriend]

I think that those who are willing to try skirts tend to be older men...because they have less to lose.

Older guys can have a lot to lose -- sometimes more than the younger ones. This includes key things like jobs and careers, not to mention non-understanding and intolerant wives -- and when the wife goes, so does one's fortune. Imagine trying to make alimony payments with no source of income -- atop losing 50+ percent the moment she dials the divorce lawyer.

As far as starting a family in this day and age, I'd like to be able to figure out precisely why anyone would knowingly and wilfully bring a child into the world today. With any sort of luck, that child will turn into an intelligent, sensitive, and caring adult; and what sort of a world will that individual inherit? Perhaps I'm overly pessimistic, but I took myself out of the gene pool in the early 1980s when I saw the writing on the wall, and it's only gotten darker, nastier, and less appealing ever since.

[pelmut]

...That is exactly what gender is all about: the place you want to occupy in the society in which you find yourself.

But can anything so variable really be hard-wired at birth? ...

Dr. Baudewijntje Kreukels of Amsterdam is doing research in this area at the moment. Some of her results are summarised at:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5082510/

Girls with GD [Gender Dysphoria] before testosterone treatment differed significantly in frontal brain activation from the control girls [....] suggesting a masculinization of brain structures associated with visuospatial cognitive functions.

[SkirtsDad]

And so, the practice of a man wearing a skirt is bound to decrease the likelihood that he will find himself in jail down the road as he has a better chance of pairing up with a more level headed woman rather than your typical run of the mill trailer trash.

I aver this to not be the case as I found out the hard way when my ex-'s brain died. Rational, level-headed, and intelligent women are just as able to call the cops as any bimbo. And once the accusation is in, the guy is guilty as charged unless he can successfully prove the negative and assert his innocence.

What a very warped conversation this has become. Why do you keep referring to women as "trailer trash" moon? Using the term "bimbo" crfriend is hardly any better. These are women from all walks of life, many of whose history you probably don't know.

If you want to look at people's behaviour I feel you would be better looking at the statistics and talk to people around you. Where I am, I have known at least 24 women that have been raped, one that was beaten over the head with a brick and left for dead. You can add to that a few more that have had their ribs broken by their partners and ended up in hospital. If I look at some of the drug addicts and prostitutes I know then these were repeatedly raped as children..... by men. Yes I do know 2 men that were raped, or should I say buggered, as children by adult men (one a priest).

Whilst I appreciate I know very little about your lives, I find it hard to imagine that you can realistically justify your derogatory slang whist talking about women with whom you appear not to have an empathy. I think this forum would be a better place if people were more respectful of others, and in the above, women in particular.

[crfriend]

What a very warped conversation this has become. Why do you keep referring to women as "trailer trash" moon? Using the term "bimbo" crfriend is hardly any better. These are women from all walks of life, many of whose history you probably don't know.

We may be dealing with cultural differences in this case. I can say with certainty that I do not consider most women to be bimbos, although I am aware that the local culture does not necessarily foster the display of intelligence by women; this does not mean that they do not have it, rather that frequently they don't as they think it might be threatening to potential partners. I find this facet disheartening at best, and entirely counter-productive in practise. The term "trailer trash" is a couple of steps down on the social scale from "bimbo", and I rather think that Moon is not calling all women that, but rather making a generalisation for effect, although he'll have to speak for himself on that count.

I've been privileged to know many very, very bright women; I've also seen many of them do things and make decisions that belie their intelligence -- just as I've seen smart guys do stupid things in an attempt to acquire a mate. Perhaps the game is just wired that way. Whatever this issue is, it seems to work because the species is still around. I wonder if evolution is trying to select out the extremely bright ones for some oddball reason, or whether it's down to the local economy. Both are equally possible for all I know.

Where I am, I have known at least 24 women that have been raped, one that was beaten over the head with a brick and left for dead.

That's down to despicable and violent behaviour on the part of their attackers, and -- if the thing was really a criminal act -- the perpetrators ought to get locked up for a while. There is no excuse for it. However, there's also no excuse for a false allegation to be made and somebody innocent going to jail over it. A false accusation should be a chargeable offence carrying the same penalty as the accusation would have carried.

it gets really complex, really fast -- and it's not a level playing-field.

[moonshadow]

What a very warped conversation this has become. Why do you keep referring to women as "trailer trash" moon? Using the term "bimbo" crfriend is hardly any better. These are women from all walks of life, many of whose history you probably don't know.

Indeed, the conversation has become warped. What just happened here is quite typical of American society. Someone takes something someone else says and warps it around to mean something else.

I need not re-quote what I said, however if you go back and re-read it, you will find that not only did I never imply that all women are "trailer trash", in fact, I implied by my very comment that there are indeed women who are NOT trailer trash.

My comment basically says that there are different types of women. Yes skirts-dad, some women are trailer trash, and some are not, and nobody is perfect, but American culture has it's fair share of men and women alike that are indeed "trash", and quite a few that are not. I'm not going to apologize or get a dressing down for speaking the truth.

Just as I do not know all women, nor do you. Of course I realize not all women are trailer trash, however I HAVE met my fair share (who I do/did know by the way) who fit the bill... and I've met many who don't.

Why is it when I say "not all men are rapist" the female rape culture gets all up in arms, and yet when I make a remark that there is a percentage of the female population that is... shall we say, less desirable, these same type of people get upset with me because I had the audacity to claim that not all women are faultless??

Now I understand what you're saying, and I agree there are indeed some upstanding women (and men) in the world. Quite possibly in the majority even. However in no place in my comment above (quote it if you can) did I ever imply many or most women are trailer trash. My use of the word "typical" has been taken out of context here.

Let's stop reading into every thing I say as though I've got some ax to grind all of the time. I'm not asking, I'm demanding, it's wearing thin and I'm getting tired of it. When I read comments on this board, often times I read something that could be taken either way but I endeavor to give the writer the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant no ill by the comment. Why I can't get the same in return is a mystery to me. But it's going to stop, or I'll zip my mouth shut online and off and go mute. I'm not some backwoods hillbilly monster, and I go through great lengths to not be offensive to people. But I'm starting to realize it's a futile effort. Hence my little rant here. It seems like someone's always got to get offended by every little thing that comes out of my mouth...

It stops today.

[Mike]

but I endeavor to give the writer the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant no ill by the comment.

Right on Moon! I think social media has changed the way people interact for the worse. Now it's all keyboard warriors who think they are right and have no tolerance for someone else's opinion... and the irony is that they do it while claiming to be tolerant! I, for one, think you have a great sense of humor. I think you are also very intelligent and your use of sarcasm is sometimes missed by some - I enjoy it. Keep on truckin'!