Rigid gender stereotypes

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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Uncle Al
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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pelmut wrote:
Caultron wrote: .... if all men wore skirts and all women wore pants,
That may yet come to pass...
Hasn't it already happened, at least the 2nd half of the sentence :?:

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Ralph
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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Caultron wrote:But can anything so variable really be hard-wired at birth? Or is there some layer of abstraction that's hard-wired and broadly influences free choices?
That's a biological/psychological grey area, so the answer is a weak "yes" qualified with innumerable exceptions and no two sociologists will agree on where biology leaves off and environment/culture begins. Consider the so-called "gender identity tests" like the COGIATI and the SAGE. They assume that you're either good at hard science (math, chemistry) or liberal arts (music, spelling) but not both, and the one you're good at determines what gender you are most closely aligned with. Do girls really have an affinity for colors and patterns because of the hormonal balance in their brains, or because that's how they were raised? Likely it's a little of both: There are some traits, such as aggression, that are obviously enhanced by androgen, but even without that society tends to reward aggression in boys and reward passivity in girls. But look at the result of sending women into the workforce when men were shipped off to fight World War II. Suddenly it was no longer impossible for women to understand engines, or do calculus to calculate spaceship trajectories, or run businesses. Did the women change overnight? Of course not; they always had those abilities but the ability was suppressed when they were expected to be housewives.

In the academic community, there are researchers who claim to have demonstrated measurable differences in different types of behavior in lab rats and monkeys mapped to different brain activity in males and females, for example:
In a study of 34 rhesus monkeys, for example, males strongly preferred toys with wheels over plush toys, whereas females found plush toys likable. It would be tough to argue that the monkeys’ parents bought them sex-typed toys or that simian society encourages its male offspring to play more with trucks.
Here's another list of ways researchers claim they have found male and female brains are different.

But these researchers who are willing to explore the possibility are denounced as sexist by those who would argue all brains are completely identical. And for every man or woman who fits the stereotype (men better at math, women better at abstract reasoning) we can probably all think of people who defy the stereotype. Are the general norms due to typical hormone mix during brain development, and the exceptions due to an imbalance? Is there something beyond the hormones, wired directly into our DNA? Or is it all hogwash and we really are all identical, male and female, in terms of abilities and preferences? That's a question beyond my grasp...

Kudos to all of you for bringing up some incredibly thoughtful insights without letting this turn into a judgmental war against anyone who thinks differently from ourselves. Keep it up!
Ralph!
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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Caultron wrote:
pelmut wrote:Yep! That is exactly what gender is all about: the place you want to occupy in the society in which you find yourself.
But can anything so variable really be hard-wired at birth? Or is there some layer of abstraction that's hard-wired and broadly influences free choices?
Recent research suggests that the desire is hard-wired, but the way that desire is fulfilled will depend on external influences, mainly society.
eg: Everyone is hard-wired to seek food when they are hungry, but the food you prefer will depend on circumstances and upbringing.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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I have taken the COGIATI test, both before going on estrogen and a year ago, after being on it for 4 years. My recollection is hazy, but I seem to remember the earlier score was something like 420 - strongly transgender and in need of counseling. The later score was 100 - gender neutral, which is within the normal range for a man.

I used to be a regular at Crossdressers.com and I was thinking about socially transitioning to a woman, taking on the name of Johanna. Now I don't go on that website much and will remain a man with the name of John. I still am on estrogen.

So I must be a lot more comfortable about myself.

John
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Sinned
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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I have just taken the COGIATI test and my score was -60 classification 3 Androgyne, androgynous or both male and female at the same time.

From the site:

What this means is that the Combined Gender Identity And Transsexuality Inventory has classified your internal gender identity to be essentially androgynous, both male and female at the same time, or possibly neither. In some cultures in history, you would be considered to be a third sex, independent of the polarities of masculine or feminine. Your gender issues are intrinsic to your construction, and you will most likely find your happiness playing with expressing both genders as you feel like it.
SUGGESTIONS FOR ACTION:
Your situation is a little tricky in our current society, but not tremendously so, depending on your geographic location.
The suggestions for your circumstance are not overly complicated.
1. If you have any comfortability about your gender expression, some slight degree of counseling might well prove helpful. The primary goal would be to make it possible for you to enjoy your gender expressions free from any shame or embarrassment, and to resolve any remaining questions you might have.
2. As an androgynous being, both genders, and both sexes are natural to your expression. Permanent polarization in either direction might bring significant unhappiness. It is not recommended that you go through a complete transsexual transformation. You might find a partial transformation of value, if you find yourself more attracted overall to the feminine. You are more likely a transgenderist, than a transsexual. It is recommended that you recognize that your gender issues are real, but that extreme action regarding them should be viewed with great caution.
3. If you have not already, consider joining any of the thousands of groups devoted to gender play of various varieties. There is literally a world of friends to discover who share your interests. There are also publications, vacations, and activities that would expand your gender play.

In response I am comfortable as I am, enjoy dressing as I do as they are now natural to me and don't welcome counselling. I don't want any sort of transformation except that whilst breasts of a bigger size might be interesting I'm not interested enough to take hormones as John does. I have joined a forum that meshes with my "condition" and am grateful for it. I feel that I have made friends here that understand and offer real support. I am content with this.

Also as I was flicking through the satellite channels I cam across on channel mytv a programme called "A Different Kind Of a Woman", the summary is as follows: "DKW is a modern talk show that teaches women how to free themselves from limiting conventions in order to embrace their unique beauty and individuality." Unfortunately MOH was around, she would have wondered why I was watching such a programme, and the programme was about over else I would have watched it. But why can't we have that sort of programme for us and why do women get the special treatment? :(
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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JohnH
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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I think the COGIATI test is not much better than for entertainment. Some say estrogen will rewire a man's brain, even to possibly changing ones sexual preference. Well, guess what. I'm still attracted to women, and the thought of me being intimate with a man disgusts me. My likes and skills are unaltered.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Grok »

Sinned wrote:I have just taken the COGIATI test and my score was -60 classification 3 Androgyne, androgynous or both male and female at the same time.

What this means is that the Combined Gender Identity And Transsexuality Inventory has classified your internal gender identity to be essentially androgynous, both male and female at the same time, or possibly neither. In some cultures in history, you would be considered to be a third sex, independent of the polarities of masculine or feminine.
I haven't taken the test. However, comparing my personality to the extremes of the gender binary, a woman friend commented that I am right in the middle, between conventional masculinity and conventional femininity. (Which is where I would place her personality).

In some ways I don't stand out. With a male body, and a sexual orientation exclusively towards women, I suppose that I can be considered "straight". Wearing typical male clothing, out and about, I blend in. I think that I come across as being so bland that I am under the radar.

In some ways I am drawn to typical male interests, though of course I reject the rule that a male bodied person must always wear twin pipes.

The third gender thing is interesting. In the case of androgynes, I believe, people with male or female bodies would basically find themselves in the same place mentally.

Referring back to the wikipedia articles, though, some forms to transgenderism seem exotic to me, making me seem like a bland conformist in comparison.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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JohnH wrote:I think the COGIATI test is not much better than for entertainment.
That is the general opinion of it in the transgender world. These sorts of tests rely on the subject subscribing to the same gender stereotypes as the person who wrote the test.
Some say estrogen will rewire a man's brain, even to possibly changing ones sexual preference. Well, guess what. I'm still attracted to women, and the thought of me being intimate with a man disgusts me. My likes and skills are unaltered.
In general, sexual preferences are far more complex than the body automatically reacting in a certain way because of a particular chemical. On some of the transgender forums there have been occasional reports of people finding their sexual preferences change (or at least become more fluid) after taking hormones for a while, but this is not proof that the hormones were directly responsible. It is possible that after male-to-female transition the person finds they rather like these chivalrous men paying them attention - or it may be that the hormones have a liberating effect which removes previously suppressed inhibitions.

Most people who report on this, however, find the same as you have: their preferences remain unchanged.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Sinned
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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John et al, I realise that the test was just for entertainment. I never took it seriously and the description of me was completely off the mark. Like you the female sex is definitely on my radar although being married it's look only, don't touch. I look male and don't feel as if I have any female characteristics but I suppose I must have. I just posted what I did to show how inaccurate it was.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by moonshadow »

Darryl wrote: Also...GIVEN: It is possible to read the Genesis account and see where Eve was NOT a subservient 'helper' but rather an equal partner with Adam. Paul says:
Galatians 3:27-28 (NET1) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female — for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.
BOOM! There it is!

:clap:

And with that said... people can just get the hell over themselves!

*mic drop*
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SkirtsDad
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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Fred in Skirts wrote::soapbox:
You are who you think you are! Fred
In a very simplistic manner perhaps; however, is it not society/upbringing that influences how we see ourselves? For most people, if they are repeatedly told that they are a certain way then it becomes true. For instance, many eating disorders can be attributed to society's portrayal of body ideals. Also, children's self esteem can be ruined by consistently being told by their parents that they are stupid.... someone I knew was told by their mother "just because you passed your exams, don't think that you are intelligent".

From my own side, I do not conform to current Western ideas of masculinity, therefore, does that make me 'masculine' because I decide to see myself that way?

Gender stereotypes are probably not as rigid as people think - would Vikings have viewed today's men as masculine? Are women not feminine if they wear trousers? It sometimes feels, though, like the movement on gender expectations for men is placing more constrains, whilst offering very few concessions.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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SkirtsDad wrote:...It sometimes feels, though, like the movement on gender expectations for men is placing more constrains, whilst offering very few concessions.
The reverse seems more apparent to me.

What are some gender expressions for men you believe are more constrained now than in the past?
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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Caultron wrote:What are some gender expressions for men you believe are more constrained now than in the past?
We can start with the ability to be empathetic and to cry from time to time. We can then move to an expectation of belligerence as opposed to civility. Or to strike first (frequently physically) instead of negotiating.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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crfriend wrote:...Or to strike first (frequently physically) instead of negotiating.
Carl, is this your inner Klingon speaking :?:

:hide:

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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

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Uncle Al wrote:
crfriend wrote:...Or to strike first (frequently physically) instead of negotiating.
Carl, is this your inner Klingon speaking :?:
Well played, Sir.

Whilst I do know a few Klingon phrases (it is, after all, a lexically complete and functional language), in person I am surprisingly genteel in manner. This stands diametrically opposed to my physical size, which is likely why I can get away with what I do without getting overtly hassled at every turn.

I would not say that I have an "inner Klingon" any more than I have an "inner woman". (Now there's a fun juxtaposition!)
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