Rigid gender stereotypes

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
Disaffected.citizen
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Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

Not strictly about wearing skirts, but an interesting article, nonetheless.
pelmut
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by pelmut »

All the examples in that article are of stereotyping on the basis of sex, not gender; the author doesn't understand the difference. If the expectations really were based on gender instead of their sex, most of those problems wouldn't arise.
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Ralph »

It has long been my theory that these rigid gender role stereotypes have a direct impact on gender dysphoria. How many confused young people think they are "supposed" to be a gender that does not match their biological sex, just because they fail to meet societal expectations of their gender role?

Suppose you have a boy who for whatever reason doesn't have the "alpha dog" gene. He's more nurturing than combative, more imaginative than athletic, plays with dolls instead of sports, maybe even discovers an interest in wearing dresses instead of trousers. I'm sure that doesn't sound like anybody here, just a hypothetical example. Society tells him that only girls do those things, and if he wants to be a boy he'll have to get outside and start getting into fights, throw (or kick) a football depending on what continent he's on, bulk up on the muscles, and for heaven's sake forget about even looking at a dress or skirt.

What's he to think? If only girls like the things he likes, he must actually be a girl despite all the dangly bits in his biology. So he starts reading about transgender issues, figures that suits him better than being a boy, and heads into a lifetime of either guilt and shame hiding his true nature or rejection by friends, maybe even family when he tells them that he believes he's really a girl.

Why? Because society won't allow boys who accept their masculinity while at the same time having traits and behaviors society insists must be exclusively female. So he can't be a boy, he's not happy being a girl, and life sucks.
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Fred in Skirts
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Fred in Skirts »

:soapbox:

You are who you think you are! I know it sounds like a bunch of BS but it really isn't, all of the labels put on us (by us I mean everyone) are where the BS hits the fan. I do not believe in labeling people, it makes us less human. :smurf: You are human and as a human you will become the person you are intended to be, no one can make you into what they want you to be if you do not let them.

So the real question for you is ARE YOU HAPPY!!! If the answer is yes then do not second guess yourself stand tall and smile sweetly for all to see. :D

Since I don't try to put labels on others or myself I tend to be pretty happy with who I am and always try to have a smile on my lips if nothing else. :D

I not only wear dresses and skirts, stockings, garter belts, and blouses from the ladies side of the store. I dress this way because I enjoy the softness of the clothes, the comfort and how they make me feel. :dance:

I am not a woman nor do I try to act like one, I am a man but I like womens clothes because they feel better than mens clothes.

Fred
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by crfriend »

pelmut wrote:All the examples in that article are of stereotyping on the basis of sex, not gender; the author doesn't understand the difference. If the expectations really were based on gender instead of their sex, most of those problems wouldn't arise.
Well, some of this revolves around the ignorance of parents and society, and some of it revolves around the perceived need to enforce stereotypes early on before the "gender" has developed and thus gets hung on biological sex. It's simple and it's easy. Ascertaining the sex of a three-year-old is accomplished by examining what's below the waist; asking what the child thinks it is won't yield any meaningful answer (save in a very few rare cases) because the child likely won't have developed a concept about it yet.

The problem arises when the innate mental characteristics of the child don't line up perfectly with the stereotype that's expected of them. Trying to hammer a slightly elliptical peg into a round hole causes just as much pain to everybody involved as trying to hammer a square one in. Unlike the stereotypes, the world is awash in diversity -- and this helps things in the long haul because it makes us (as a collective group) more adaptable and flexible.

The other issue stems from the change in stereotypes over the years where women have become progressively more masculine (aggressive, competitive, domineering, &c.) but have not ceded any ground for men to shift into. This is the genesis of the "shrinking box" that men are in today, and at least in the United States men are now little more than sperm-donors, wallets, and prisoners (or prisoners-to-be) because of the way they feel they need to react to things. It's entirely unhealthy and unsustainable. They can't be fathers any longer because man+child=paedophile; they can't nurture because their pals will view them as weak and ineffectual; learning new things and advancing through knowledge is getting to be less of an option because "that's what girls do" (and get all the rewards for); and are expected to fight instead of negotiating which is where a heck of a lot of injury and grief comes from. It's no wonder than men commit suicide at vastly higher rates than women, that the drink more, and are generally more miserable.

The Myth of Machismo needs to be staked down and buried. Period. Men and women need to be able to work together as teams and not as adversaries. Men need to learn the "soft skills" that separate humans from animals, and to have it not be viewed as weakness. Finally, governments need to stop rewarding one sex/gender/whim/whatever more than another. We (as a species) are better than what we're doing now -- and we're going in the wrong direction.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by JohnH »

I agree there is something quite wrong about the masculine stereotype in the US and the shrinking box. On the website crossdressers.com there are sections dealing with F2M (female to male) and M2F (male to female) topics. There is not much activity at all for F2M but the activity for M2F is overwhelming.

I was an elliptical peg trying to be pounded in a round hole. I was not into competitive sports; rather I was into music. I was imaginative and nurturing instead of being combative and rough.

I myself left the masculine stereotype even to the point of going on estrogen and altering my appearance. However, I still regard myself as being a man with the name of John who prefers masculine pronouns, and I talk and sing in the deep masculine bass range. The strange thing is my social interactions have improved considerably.

I am no longer suicidal, I don't drink to excess, and I no longer have such a violent temper.

John
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Ralph »

Great to hear how you found a way to be comfortable in your skin, John. If you don't mind my asking, why the estrogen? How does that improve things for you? (If that comes across at all sounding judgemental, it's not intended to be; I'm genuinely curious because I don't know the first thing about what estrogen replacement does)
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by JohnH »

Look at the following:

http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 15#p141790

http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 30#p141868

http://www.skirtcafe.org/forums/viewtop ... 30#p142011

I have started wearing women's shirts since I need room for my bust (DD cup). Men's shirts that have room for my chest have shoulder seams past my shoulders.

Some effects besides the breast development include the following:
1. The strong male scent gone
2. A more feminine fat distribution, including the hips and face
3. Finer body hair
4. A fuller head of hair

Perhaps the reason I get along better in social situations is my relatively feminine personality goes better with my appearance, in spite of my bass voice.

John
Last edited by JohnH on Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Sinned »

John, I'm glad that Ralph asked the question because I am genuinely interested too in a non-judgemental way. I was hesitant to ask but as you said that you didn't want to be a woman I am left a little confused as to your reason or if there was a physical affliction that precipitated this. If you wish to PM us rather than open contribution then please feel free. Or if you want to tell us to mind our own business then please tell us. I won't be offended.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by JohnH »

The only way I would consider myself a woman would be with SRS (sexual reassignment surgery) to alter my configuration from male to female. The thought of such an action makes me shudder. I am a male so I am a man and not a woman.

In my opinion if one has a penis and is an adult he is a man. If one has a vagina and is an adult she is a woman in my thinking, however politically incorrect. I think of the English word "woman" as a man with a womb.

John
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Ralph »

JohnH wrote:In my opinion if one has a penis and is an adult he is a man. If one has a vagina and is an adult she is a woman in my thinking, however politically incorrect. I think of the English word "woman" as a man with a womb.
Without getting into the psychology of gender (vs. sex) identity, even the biology can get a bit muddled for some. Even if you do the whole works with hormone replacement and breast enhancement and swap out the plumbing, you still have that pesky little Y chromosome to remind you that all those changes are just surface cosmetics. At the genetic level, even with the plumbing changed out, you're still a man... albeit a man with a lovely shape :D

However, it still doesn't address the confusing world of intersex -- what if you are born with the Y chromosome but a vagina and no penis? What if you are born with both a vagina and penis? For a small but very real percentage of the population, there is no "you have a penis therefore you are a male" binary certainty.

Moving on to the psychology of gender identity, that's a whole different debate and one I am not qualified to have an opinion on. Can you be biologically male but psychologically female? What does it even mean to "feel" female? As noted in an earlier reply, I worry that we only reinforce archaic gender stereotypes if we say that a person who has these skills or those emotions must be inherently female.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Caultron »

It would be interesting to know how someone born physically male but psychologically female would act in a society where one or more gender expressions were the opposite of ours.

Like, if all men wore skirts and all women wore pants, how would a physically male, psychologically female person want to dress? I'm guessing pants, which would indicate that the deciding factor was the sociological role one wanted to play rather than any biological relation between genetics and clothing styles.

Or maybe a cigar is just a cigar.
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by pelmut »

Caultron wrote:It would be interesting to know how someone born physically male but psychologically female would act in a society where one or more gender expressions were the opposite of ours.

Like, if all men wore skirts and all women wore pants, how would a physically male, psychologically female person want to dress? I'm guessing pants, which would indicate that the deciding factor was the sociological role one wanted to play rather than any biological relation between genetics and clothing styles....
Yep! That is exactly what gender is all about: the place you want to occupy in the society in which you find yourself.
if all men wore skirts and all women wore pants,
That may yet come to pass...
There is no such thing as a normal person, only someone you don't know very well yet.
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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Caultron »

pelmut wrote:Yep! That is exactly what gender is all about: the place you want to occupy in the society in which you find yourself.
But can anything so variable really be hard-wired at birth? Or is there some layer of abstraction that's hard-wired and broadly influences free choices?
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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Re: Rigid gender stereotypes

Post by Darryl »

I prefer to start here...GIVEN:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
— Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
Also...GIVEN: It is possible to read the Genesis account and see where Eve was NOT a subservient 'helper' but rather an equal partner with Adam. Paul says:
Galatians 3:27-28 (NET1) For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female — for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.
Those two above have been all I've needed since grade school.

There is some 'nature' (i.e. testosterone vs estrogen) which alters our moods and emotions to some extent.

The rest, in my opinion, is 'nurture.' How are human beings (of whatever biological gender) raised, conditioned and programmed during their 'formative years?'

One wonders: http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201510 ... -by-wolves

Of interest: https://www.bu.edu/today/2007/raising-boys-without-men/ and also http://www.artofmanliness.com/2010/12/1 ... -by-women/ - it would be nice if we could do a lab and raise a boy from birth to 16 with only women around and none of the 'gender programming', then gradually expose him to men over the next 4 years. Personality? Manly? How would he be described? And simultaneously raise a girl the same way with only men around.

Probably not possible without some type of 'contamination.'
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