Guy in Valdosta

[Sinned]

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. If you take the time to read through the various threads and posts the denim skirt is recommended highly and widely as probably the FIRST skirt to wear as it becomes more invisible than any other. It is sturdy and probably the most man-like of any. I'd be interested in your rationale for not recommending denim.

I appreciate that your blog was aimed at an introduction and I wasn't too critical about it - in view of experience there was a lot more I could pick with. On the whole the article was a good effort and I hope that you think that I am trying to be constructive but then my advice is worth exactly what it cost.

[oldsalt1]

I have to agree with sinned on this Denim is very popular among the average everyday person and is easily confused with shorts. I was wearing a denim skirt and I had a fellow look me straight in the face last spring and say ". Its a great to be able to wear shorts again"

[VoxClamantis]

This is the last response I will give to either of you because your minds are clearly made up and you don't want to be confused by reading the words before your eyes.

I'd be interested in your rationale for not recommending denim.

I was actually quite articulate as to my "rationale" both on my blog and in this forum:

while denim might seem like a go-to style, it is not something that I believe a newbie should do (as much to avoid the "Village People" motif as to be respectably styled--after all, men's denim shorts have long, long, long been out of style so denim skirts are just too close to that fashion faux pas for the newbie to navigate).

Of course, as I pointed out as well, I encouraged men to assert gender equality in the workplace; I don't know of a single employer that permits denim in a corporate environments. One of the banks where I previously worked only permitted denim once a month if we contributed $5 to the company's designated charity. But then again, I was in the corporate office; maybe the branches were more casual. But on another note...

On the whole the article was a good effort

Don't condescend. I have a Ph.D. in literature. I know my rhetoric is top-notch. On still another note...

I was wearing a denim skirt and I had a fellow look me straight in the face last spring and say ". Its a great to be able to wear shorts again"

Perhaps he was mocking you too subtly for you to have picked up on. Perhaps he did notice your skirt for that reason specifically said "shorts" as if to imply that you were misdressed for the occasion. He might have said the same thing had you worn actual shorts in the middle of winter--as if to mock you for being misdressed for the season. People do have their own ways of being politely snarky.

But this is me dropping the mic and walking away because as I noted at the start, your minds are made up and you don't wish to be confused by actually reading what I had written so I don't expect a different outcome going forward. People who are hard of hearing some times miss parts of a conversation, but those who are hard of seeing can either read all or read none. People have to purposefully choose not to read parts of the whole.

[moonshadow]

I guess really what it comes down to, is the best skirt for a man to wear out on his first outing is whatever skirt makes him feel the most confident in that new uncharted territory.

I know my first outfit wasn't very business casual, masculine, or feminine. In fact, looking back on it, I have to say it looked rather sloppy (a long oversized tee-shirt and a charcoal Macabi). But it's what gave me the courage to step out on the front porch in view of the street for the first time. Our own sense of style is something each of us graduate into, it's seldom something that happens overnight.

It was about nine months before I even thought to pair "women's" tops with my skirts, and about a year before I ever tried a dress, and it was a disaster, but we learn as we go.

Eventually, I'd say after two years, virtually all of the "newness" wore off and I was simply just wearing what became my style. I redonated some skirts and dresses that no longer suited my taste, and expanded on others that did. I can now choose my outfit in about 60 seconds, and I feel reasonably confident when I go out, hardly thinking twice about what I'm wearing.

To this day, the charcoal Macabi isn't among my favorites (because it's rather dull). Yet it holds a special place in my heart as being my first, and I can't get rid of it for that reason. I even give it a few miles once in a while just for the nostalgia of it. On the flip side, I've got a cherry red Macabi that's the exact same cut skirt (just red), and I always love giving that one some time in the sun!

In that length of time, the man will go through many phases. He may go on to be a regular crossdresser, feminine persona and all, he may fully transition into the female gender, he may decide skirts aren't for him at all and go back to trousers, or he may just level off and continue to wear skirts as he sees fit.

I think a nice goal for male skirt wearers is to aim for the skirt to be a part of his life, not for his life to be skirts. They should be a part of the spice of life, not the main dish.

Happiness should always be the main dish.

[Feeling freedom]

Since when are denim skirts fashion faux pas? I have not seen or read this anywhere, denim skirts are everywhere! VoxClamantis, you may be a PhD in literature but are you a PhD in fashion? You may not be seeing the popularity of denim skirts due to your personal point of view.

[oldsalt1]

Vox it is obvious that you also have your mind made up. I am a CPA I deal with professionals all day long . I find that the only time that a professional has to tout his credentials is when he feels his performance is seriously lacking. CR is by far the most eloquent writer on the café and he has always impressed me with his writings as opposed to a listing of his degrees

[Feeling freedom]

Did a search on "denim skirt outfits". Don't need a PhD to see that it is far from "faux pas" and I don't see anything that looks like " The Village People".

[Ray]

Vox, I liked the article. It was logically structured, clearly articulated the relevant parameters for a first time skirt wearer, and was, in the main, balanced.

I would take issue with two points.

1. The denim issue. There must be a localised culture issue at play here, because the last time I saw a guy in denim shorts, it was the 1970s. Most people I know automatically associate denim with jeans. There is no other comparator. The Village People are a distant memory for most, and an unknown for anyone under the age of 40. Perhaps it is your mind that is hard-wired on the subject; have you considered that? Sinned, OldSalt and others are intelligent; it's worth giving them credence for that instead of saying in so many words, "my way or the highway".

2. You allow personal prejudice to infiltrate the article when you refer to men's sandals. I'm not saying that they are exemplars of beauty, but it is possible to buy some nice styles. Maybe not where you live, but certainly in Eorope.

Regards

Ray

Ps what is a leatherman?

[Ray]

An addendum: it's 0835 in the U.K, and I'm in the office in my usual aubergine coloured suit (one likes to live life in colour). There are currently five men in the office. Four of them are wearing denim jeans. It's Friday which is dress down day. No cost to the participants - and a common sight in professional practices in the UK on a Friday.

[Sinned]

VC, you may have a PhD in literature but that doesn't mean that you are a good writer. I wasn't condescending in my comment - it was genuine as I thought that the article was good, but not perfect, even though aimed at a beginner. There were other points I couldn't agree with I only chose them as examples. I agree with others that despite the opinions of a lot on this site YOUR mind is made up that denim skirts are not for men for the dubious reason that denim shorts have maybe been out of fashion for a while. You seem to forget that most on this site are also highly intelligent, though perhaps without the higher degrees ( Carl is one of the most eloquent minds I have come across, and excellent writer and I believe that he has said that he is degree-less in a field where a degree is almost mandatory ), there have been some highly intellectual post on VERY diverse subjects so don't dismiss us as just part of the "great unwashed". There have been great prose from Moon and Jeff just to cite two recent posts which have receive commendation. Some of us are precise on our use of grammar and language. Don't let this discourage you or drive you from the site. We all learn that we don't always get agreement on the things we say but we accept that on the chin and get on with life.

[oldsalt1]

only one thing left to say "Y" "M" "C" "A"

[moonshadow]

only one thing left to say "Y" "M" "C" "A"

Ahh... the 70s

[crfriend]

I'd be interested in your rationale for not recommending denim.

I was actually quite articulate as to my "rationale" both on my blog and in this forum [...]

Indeed, and it is a compelling argument. However, unfortunately "denim" is regarded as the go-to fabric for most things in most places in the USA and, for reasons unknown, in many other places in the world. Also, since the stuff is so ubiquitous, I suspect it largely disappears into the "visual noise" that so pollutes our world.

Personally, I detest the stuff and have gotten called out here, although nowhere else, for the styles and fabrics I wear. Denim "disappears"; wool, satin, and velvet don't.

while denim might seem like a go-to style, it is not something that I believe a newbie should do (as much to avoid the "Village People" motif as to be respectably styled--after all, men's denim shorts have long, long, long been out of style so denim skirts are just too close to that fashion faux pas for the newbie to navigate).

That is a memory I've tried to expunge.

Of course, as I pointed out as well, I encouraged men to assert gender equality in the workplace; I don't know of a single employer that permits denim in a corporate environments.

That's another reason I eschew denim. I wear my skirts to work. I am decidedly old school in this and do not consider denim to appropriate in most settings. This is not the miner's and cowboy's old west.

[moonshadow]

Personally I like denim on skirts and jeans don't offend my eye when I see others wear them, I just don't care to wear them (jean trousers that is) mainly because I find them very uncomfortable.

Though I have never tried "women's" jeans. I may give them a go one day.

I do disagree that a denim skirt isn't a good skirt for a novice male skirt wearer. On the contrary when I wear a denim skirt out in public, or even a denim dress for that matter it seems the public isn't as harsh on me as they are when I wear other styles.

I figure it's because denim is quite socially acceptable.

[crfriend]

I figure it's because denim is quite socially acceptable.

And completely and incontrovertibly unremarkable and ordinary. In other words, "visual noise" of the sort that deadens eyeballs and stunts minds. That it is ubiquitous is no real excuse.