Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Tor » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:56 pm

pelmut wrote:The difference is that one [Master Adolf Hitler] relates to a matter of choice and the other does not.


Ummm... my recollection of the story is of a boy of about five years old, and the cakeshop refusing to make the cake. Last I checked, in the current legal world, A.H. does not have any choice in the matter of his name, so that argument fails. Both are not matters of choice.

Caultron wrote:[Re: Segregated lunch counters]
No, it isn't.

A private business may not discriminate among customers based on race.
A private business may not discriminate among customers based on sexuality.


I was referring to what is right, not the current laws here. My error in wording.

crfriend wrote:The issue of wholesale racial bigotry is something that should, hopefully, be behind us now ... Ditto overt sexism.


Agreed, and my perception of the US is that it mostly has, and if anything the pendulum is swinging in the opposite direction, where whites and men are the ones discriminated against on an institutional basis - which institutionalized discrimination I can provide zero support for in either direction.

However, I do not believe that the answer in either case was to elevate one group of citizens above another. Gentler means should have been tried rather than the ham-fisted technique which was used. Note that I am not a supporter of bigotry or discrimination in any way; what I am firmly against is being compelled by law to behave in ways that I do not agree with or to.


This.^ Especially the bolded part.

crfriend wrote:To Moonshadow's comments about regulated monopolies, those are, indeed, special cases that are semi-governmental in nature because of the nature of the way they operate.


This is also why I remain firm in my opinion that the small mom and pop businesses have every right to engage in whatever form of discrimination they feel they are willing to risk the social fallout from, while big businesses are a trickier matter. As Carl has pointed out, "He who has the gold makes the rules." This applies also to big businesses designing regulations that, while still leaving the business nominally private, do not scale linearly in cost to comply with. I can't go into it here, but I know of places where a tiny startup cannot possibly afford to comply with the regulations that are an easy cost of doing business for a larger outfit.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby crfriend » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:03 pm

One thing which we must always keep in mind is that what is right and what is legal are sometimes two very, very different things -- and sometimes things that are diametrically opposed.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Caultron » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:07 am

crfriend wrote:...Note that I am not a supporter of bigotry or discrimination in any way; what I am firmly against is being compelled by law to behave in ways that I do not agree with or to...

The law compels us to behave in ways we don't agree with all the time. Paying taxes. Obeying speed limits. Being x-rayed at airports. Suppressing fisticuffs. It goes on and on.

And I bet if you were laid off from a really good job because the employer found out you wear skirts on your own time, you'd really wish for some legal protection. There oughta be a law, eh?

The real problem here is that the baker has rights to run his business as he sees fit, and the lesbians have rights to equal treatment. So who's rights predominate? It's really a subjective call. The fact that it's a bakery rather than a lunch counter or a hair salon really isn't relevant.

I am pretty much a Separation of Church and State guy, though. Otherwise you get all kinds of people claiming all kinds of exemptions for no earthly reason. I cite again the Pastafarians.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby crfriend » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:41 am

Caultron wrote:I bet if you were laid off from a really good job because the employer found out you wear skirts on your own time, you'd really wish for some legal protection. There oughta be a law, eh?

Actually, I do not agree with that statement. I know that my behaviour can be risky; I counter that in ways that make it unlikely that the employer -- so long as things remain stable -- will be unlikely to take such an action. I got the sack from another gig in 2013 that was blatant and overt age discrimination -- and guess what, as a slightly-older-than-middle-age white male I have precisely no purchase whatsoever in the legal system, and that assertion was backed up by a lawyer pal of mine. If somebody does not want to deal with me, then it's highly likely I don't want to deal with them either. Why shove individuals into a situation where there will likely be mutual hatred? Is that right -- even if it is legal?

Ultimately people need to take responsibility for their actions -- and know that those actions may have repercussions. It's called being an adult. If I choose to be a bigoted SOB then I get to deal with the fallout from that. Full stop. Adults can suppress prejudice; it takes time, and it takes getting to know others. Do not relegate adults to the status of children by telling they have to behave in a certain way, "because I say so".
The real problem here is that the baker has rights to run his business as he sees fit, and the lesbians have rights to equal treatment. So who's rights predominate? It's really a subjective call. The fact that it's a bakery rather than a lunch counter or a hair salon really isn't relevant.

In other words, the individual's opinions -- and, yes, prejudices -- are overridden by mommy saying, "Because I say so." Charming.
I am pretty much a Separation of Church and State guy, though. Otherwise you get all kinds of people claiming all kinds of exemptions for no earthly reason. I cite again the Pastafarians.

What happens when some random religion manages to wag the State and enforce it's dogma on you even if you find said dogma irrelevant and possibly pernicious? If I wasn't going to step on a whole lot of overly-sensitive toes I'd call out a few here in the US that are doing just that. (At least the Pastafarians are non-toxic, quite unlike some of the more virulent "religions".)
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Gordon » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:48 am

You guys make my brain hurt1 :oops:
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Caultron » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:27 am

crfriend wrote:
Caultron wrote:I bet if you were laid off from a really good job because the employer found out you wear skirts on your own time, you'd really wish for some legal protection. There oughta be a law, eh?

Actually, I do not agree with that statement...

Yeah, my fault, I left you that opening.

crfriend wrote:Ultimately people need to take responsibility for their actions -- and know that those actions may have repercussions. It's called being an adult. If I choose to be a bigoted SOB then I get to deal with the fallout from that. Full stop. Adults can suppress prejudice; it takes time, and it takes getting to know others. Do not relegate adults to the status of children by telling they have to behave in a certain way, "because I say so".

But giving you the option of being a bigoted SOB interferes with the rights of whoever you're bigoted against.

crfriend wrote:
The real problem here is that the baker has rights to run his business as he sees fit, and the lesbians have rights to equal treatment. So who's rights predominate? It's really a subjective call. The fact that it's a bakery rather than a lunch counter or a hair salon really isn't relevant.

In other words, the individual's opinions -- and, yes, prejudices -- are overridden by mommy saying, "Because I say so." Charming.

Governments have a responsibility to defend the rights of their citizens. The question, of course, is one if extent.

crfriend wrote:
I am pretty much a Separation of Church and State guy, though. Otherwise you get all kinds of people claiming all kinds of exemptions for no earthly reason. I cite again the Pastafarians.

What happens when some random religion manages to wag the State and enforce it's dogma on you even if you find said dogma irrelevant and possibly pernicious? If I wasn't going to step on a whole lot of overly-sensitive toes I'd call out a few here in the US that are doing just that. (At least the Pastafarians are non-toxic, quite unlike some of the more virulent "religions".)

Yes, exactly. Religions shouldn't be allowed to wag the state.

Don't make the mistake of arguing a false binary. No one can get 100% freedom to exercise their rights, because if one person has that, it interferes with the rights of the next person. So we bumble along.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Tor » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:31 am

Here's another way to consider the issue: Freedom of association. Do you agree that people have (or should have) freedom of association? Last I checked, maintaining freedom of association implies the freedom to dissociate. Why should one lose the right to freedom of association just because one decides to try to support oneself by finding a way to improve other people's lives in a way they will pay for?

If you leave people the freedom to dissociate in business, at least you can find out where their prejudices lie, and punish them by the correct means (withdrawing financial support). Enact and enforce laws saying they'd better hide their prejudices and serve anyone and everyone with a faux smile, and now how are you going to find out about those prejudices to punish them for it?

I have yet to find a cogent argument of exactly which real and valid rights are being violated when someone chooses not to deal with someone for any reason or no reason. I have seen cogent arguments as to exactly which rights are being violated when there is a law saying someone must trade in some way or other with someone else, will he or nil he.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby pelmut » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:20 am

Tor wrote:
pelmut wrote:The difference is that one [Master Adolf Hitler] relates to a matter of choice and the other does not.


Ummm... my recollection of the story is of a boy of about five years old, and the cakeshop refusing to make the cake. Last I checked, in the current legal world, A.H. does not have any choice in the matter of his name, so that argument fails. Both are not matters of choice.

The basic argument that we should not discriminate against people on the basis of characteristics over which they have no choice does not fail because of that example. In that example, the choice was made by the parents but unfortunately it was the boy who suffered because of it.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby crfriend » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:56 am

Caultron wrote:No one can get 100% freedom to exercise their rights, because if one person has that, it interferes with the rights of the next person. So we bumble along.

This I'll happily agree to with the constraint that the exercise of a right must not directly injure another. Note that I wrote "injure" there, not "offend". The world is a rough-and-tumble place; it's a place where feelings get hurt all the time. If we managed to sanitise it to the point where nobody could be offended we'd be living in an uninhabitable bubble -- a Stepford, if you will.

Someone is not going to be injured by not having cake; offended and put out, yes, but not injured. That someone can buy cake somewhere else. This is where the line between regulated and monopolies comes into play; someone could likely be injured by a denial to provide electrical service (which can only come from the single supplier), especially in very cold or very hot climates.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Caultron » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:30 pm

How does not being allowed at a lunch counter or the front of a bus or a drinking fountain pose a threat or injure anyone?

You know, I sympathize with the mom-and-pop just-starting-out bakery couple as much as anyone. But they should've avoided the moral judgement and just made the cake.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby crfriend » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:17 pm

Caultron wrote:How does not being allowed at a lunch counter or the front of a bus or a drinking fountain pose a threat or injure anyone?

That's the thing -- it doesn't. Does that make it right? Hell no! Did something need doing? Yes. I remain unsure of the approach that was taken.
You know, I sympathize with the mom-and-pop just-starting-out bakery couple as much as anyone. But they should've avoided the moral judgement and just made the cake.

Right. Part of being an adult is knowing how to behave when things don't go your way, and the (hypothetical?) baker failed in that. The right thing to do would have been to make the cake, accept the monies in return, and graciously say, "Thanks".
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby Tor » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:54 pm

crfriend wrote:
Caultron wrote:You know, I sympathize with the mom-and-pop just-starting-out bakery couple as much as anyone. But they should've avoided the moral judgement and just made the cake.

Right. Part of being an adult is knowing how to behave when things don't go your way, and the (hypothetical?) baker failed in that. The right thing to do would have been to make the cake, accept the monies in return, and graciously say, "Thanks".


Agreed. And the right thing to do in the face of such unreasonable rejection is to withdraw support and, to whatever degree seems reasonable, make sure other people know about the bigotry so they can also withdraw support. With all the online review sites these days, a few one-star reviews might be rather effective.

crfriend wrote:That's the thing -- [not being allowed at the lunch counter] doesn't. Does that make it right? Hell no! Did something need doing? Yes. I remain unsure of the approach that was taken.


Specifically the laws. Absent the laws, I think most businesses would sooner or later have found that pursuit of the almighty dollar meant giving up on segregation, as the tide was turning and general support for segregation was crumbling. Once the laws were out of the way, there would have been nothing stopping people from opening up new lunch counters to serve one and all who walked through the doors, and further eroded the profitability of segregated lunch counters.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby moonshadow » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:45 pm

crfriend wrote:As far as "God's love" goes, is this the same god that demanded the sacrifice of a first-born son so a prayer might be heard?


Now Carl... you know me better than that... of course it's not the same God...! :wink: You're thinking about the cake bakers God. The one I speak of doesn't get spoken of often or get much air time.
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby moonshadow » Sun Jun 11, 2017 11:08 pm

Carl, Tor, I understand you all's position. I understand you're not advocating bigotry but rather prefer more of a voluntary system of fairness and reason. If one out of 50 businesses discriminated, than that still leaves 49 to visit, and I'm fine with that. The problem is hate is very much a human trait. We are, by our nature a vile and brutal species, we love drama, gossip, and conflict, and above all, we love to hate.

The problem is this hate spreads. One business in town turns into two, then four, then eight, then sixteen, so on and so forth. Before you know it you're having to visit 50 different stores to purchase 50 different items because each one takes an issue with the other 49 items you're trying to buy.

We have to have laws to keep things fair. If not for the various civil rights laws of the 60's the south would still be very much segregated today. What's a real shame is the civil rights movement happened exactly one CENTURY after the blacks were "freed". It should have NEVER taken so long. But why did it? Simple: The lack of any real legislation that had any teeth to put a stop to the segregation and other unfair practices. We freed the African slaves in the 1860's but never passed any real legislation to require the public to treat them like equal members of society, and what followed was a hundred years of discrimination.

Yeah, I'll admit, you pass a law requiring businesses to treat LGBT poeple fairly, yeah: it's going to piss off a fair number of bigots, but you know what, in ten to twenty years it won't matter. A generation will come to pass and it will be just something we discuss in history lessons. I do truly believe that if we just leave it alone and simply use the more voluntary system of "being kind and decent to one another", then I fear it will take another CENTURY or longer, and ultimately a new civil rights movement to finally set it right.

Human beings just don't love by default. We have to be TOLD to.

I too see us charging towards 1930's Germany, but I just don't think that the LGBT crowd is leading us there... I see a different "leader" charging the way... But I won't go there on this thread... :silenced:
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Re: Delhaize America Earns Top Marks in 2017 CEI

Postby crfriend » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:22 am

moonshadow wrote:Now Carl... you know me better than that... of course it's not the same God...! :wink: You're thinking about the cake bakers God. The one I speak of doesn't get spoken of often or get much air time.

Indeed, Moon, but the notion does beg the issue of, "Whose god?", does it not? That is the question that the bigots and haters never ask.
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