Gender neutral uniforms

[Sinned]

SD, the irony is that MOH is in the process of making a complaint against the lack of information that has been supplied on a treatment she has had even though she has requested such several times. Yes the role will be interesting and the way things are going with the NHS, very busy as well. I have fingers, toes everything crossed and thanks. I need a challenge at the moment, retail is getting too boring.

[Grok]

Orange Apple

I am not saying that everyone among the remaining 98% has each and every psychological and physical characteristic that we see as emblematic of their biological sex. As an example, we see that some lesbian women exhibit preferences, mannerisms and behaviours that we more often associate with males - and they are attracted to women - but they are entirely happy being women. Likewise, some men have characteristics that are more feminine:

I am struggling to see any feminine characteristics in myself. However, I want to see skirts completely de-gendered so that they are as conventional for males as they are for females. .

There are theories that sexual orientation, gender identity, and gendered behavior are influenced by different parts of the brain, and sometimes these are not aligned in the conventional/orthodox manner.

On the other hand, one convention seems to be based purely on culture rather than neurology-the number of pipes (one or two?) that one wears below the waist.

[moonshadow]

I like this!
Here's how I measure up:
Stevie D = about 70% feminine/30% masculine; penis; small breasts; shoulder-length hair cut in a feminine bob style, coloured mahogany red; facial hair shaved meticulously; quite a lot of body hair but mostly kept shaved/epilated; medium deep voice; slightly competitive sometimes; just about all my clothes are women's, both outer and underwear.

If I fit into any system it would be non-binary/androgynous.

I'll play!

Over the last several months I've come to the conclusion that I'm about 50/50.
Masculine: penis, some facial hair, hillbilly voice, gets "fightin" mad sometimes, can back a trailer, pays too much for auto insurance, hates makeup.
Feminine: can't grow full board, thin body hair, small shoulders, giggles (in a hillbilly way ), knows how to be a b!tch, talked my way out of every roadside ticket, hates sports, loves dressing femininely.

Regarding the transgender issue and my role in it. To each his own. But for me, "transgender" implies that one is "transforming" into something that he or she wasn't before, with hormones, behavioral changes, etc. I am not "transforming" into anything. I'm just me, always have been me, and always will be me. I'm not taking any supplements to change the chemistry of my body. I have come to realize that my gender is "neutral", however am fine to use the pronoun "he", however if someone were to call me a "she" I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. I have a penis, that makes my sex male. I have enough masculine characteristics to not consider my gender female, and I have enough feminine characteristics to not consider my gender pure male. I'm somewhere in the middle, like I said, 50/50. I'm fine to be called a "man in a skirt", "feminine man", or even the old dreaded "cross dresser" label doesn't really bother me like it used to...

Just don't call me a "transgender". Not that I have a problem with that, or think there is any shame in it, but I am what I always have been. I haven't "transformed" into anything else.

I have ZERO desire to "pass" as a woman. My only goal every day is to "pass" as Moon Shadow. And every day, I succeed!
(who else am I going to be after all??)

Transgender women, cross-dressers, and men like us... like the three Abrahamic religions we all have one thing that binds us (our clothes), yet past that, we do seem to go our own way...

Or maybe we're the guys that are just to damned ugly to pull it off in either gender! j/k!

[pelmut]

... for me, "transgender" implies that one is "transforming" into something that he or she wasn't before, with hormones, behavioral changes, etc.

It's actually the opposite of that: the transgender person is transforming into something they knew they were all along - BUT - not all people who come under the transgender umbrella feel the need for transition. As with most of these things, 'transgender' covers a wide range of possibilities. For a long time I did not think of myself as transgender, but I have come to realise that I am. I have not changed - but my understanding of 'transgender' has.

My own 'transition' has been to simply unlearn inappropriate male behaviour that had been drummed into me from childhood and allow my natural behaviour to come through. Granted there have been behavioural changes, but I have not had to learn to do anything new, only to stop inhibiting things I would have done naturally.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

My understanding of the term transgender is someone who crosses the gender binary lines.

Until recently it meant crossdressers (which is the literal translation of "transvestite") and transsexuals. Over the last few years, more and more people, such as ourselves, are filling in the voids in the spectrum of human behavior between the gender norms and crossdressing and between crossdressing and transsexualism.

My someday to be ex- encouraged me to stop crossdressing about 10 years ago because she was sure I was sliding down the slippery slope to changing sexes. I don't think I was. I do think I had let the crossdressing take over my life so stopping was a good idea. Some people can and do get carried away with almost anything, but I still believe for almost everyone there is such a qualitative difference between crossdressing and changing sexes that there isn't such a slippery slope.

I have now come to the conclusion that wearing skirts, dresses and blouses as a male, rather than trying to present myself as a female, is what I really wanted to do all along; I just didn't see any recognized place in society for guys who did that. Today, there is and as Moonshadow recently learned at the dump, even in the backwoods South.

Who knows what it will take for most Western males to wear skirts, probably more climate change. In the meantime, we're still, by definition, transgenderists because we're bridging the norms of the gender binary, but in my experience, people accept it, so in a sense we've obliterated the norms and the language hasn't caught up.

In short, a lot of this is more semantics than substance.

[pelmut]

... I still believe for almost everyone there is such a qualitative difference between crossdressing and changing sexes that there isn't such a slippery slope.

Crossdessing and changing your apparent sex to match your gender (transitioning) are indeed two separate things. If you are transgender you might want to do both - although you may not consider that wearing clothes expressing your true gender (as opposed to your sex) is actually crossdressing. If you are not transgender, you might want to wear a skirt for comfort, fashion, culture, free-thinking, fetishism or even exhibitionism - and none of those can make you transgender, so there is no slippery slope at all.

There is, however, a third category: some men are transgender but not aware of it. I was in that category and the feeling of 'normality' I got when wearing a skirt was only one of many little tell-tales that eventually led up to the gradual realisation that I was probably mildly 'trans'. It didn't make me trans, because I can now see that this started much earlier in my life - and it isn't making me more trans by continuing to wear it. What it is doing is letting me explore further and see where it leads. Now you might say that is the slippery slope, but I see it as a gradual revalation of the truth that I had been denying myself for so long.

[moonshadow]

It's actually the opposite of that: the transgender person is transforming into something they knew they were all along - BUT - not all people who come under the transgender umbrella feel the need for transition. As with most of these things, 'transgender' covers a wide range of possibilities.

At first I thought you were crazy. Then I actually looked it up and I realized you are correct.

Thus... I stand corrected.

Well then... guess under the definition of "transgender", I suppose given my personality, how I behave, my habits, etc, I must fall under that category.

Still can't wrap my mind around how trousers are for everyone, men and women, and skirts and dresses are only for women and... okay- transgendered people. Something just doesn't seem right, or fair about that.

Another curiosity I have regarding transgender people who take hormones: If a man decides he is a "woman" inside and goes down the transgender route, he begins to take hormones and his body chemistry becomes that of a woman. That changing of body chemistry changes the very personality of the former "man", and thus the individual that inspired "him" to go down that road to begin with. Who's to say that after all of that estrogen kicks in, "she" doesn't decide one day that "she's" a transgender man and wants to go back to the way things were before?

I guess what I'm trying to say is if transgenderism is all about being "your inner self", then why take hormones to change what that "inner self" is?

I dunno, maybe I'm just out of touch. And I'm not trying to be critical, or a smart ass. These are genuine curiosities that I think about. Often times when I pose these questions to trans-people they get offended. But why? It's just a question, I'm not judging. I'm curious. If someone wants to hormone up, that's their business, I just like to explore what makes people tick.

As for me, and my personal spiritual views, I like myself the way I am on the inside. I like my chemistry and my soul. I have struggled with both for so long and very recently I finally just accepted it for what it is and came to peace with it, although it is still somewhat of a work in progress. There are times I wish I was more "normal" just so I could fit in, but to be normal is to deny my inner self, and that inner self is crazy as hell. My neighbor is exactly correct: "I ain't right!" Nope, but I'm perfectly fine to be weird, strange, odd, queer, left, wrong, etc.

[pelmut]

Another curiosity I have regarding transgender people who take hormones: If a man decides he is a "woman" inside and goes down the transgender route, he begins to take hormones and his body chemistry becomes that of a woman. That changing of body chemistry changes the very personality of the former "man", and thus the individual that inspired "him" to go down that road to begin with. Who's to say that after all of that estrogen kicks in, "she" doesn't decide one day that "she's" a transgender man and wants to go back to the way things were before?

That's an interesting thought, but the word "decide" gives a false impression of freedom to choose; "recognise" would describe the process better. There is no choice about being transgender, but there is a degree of freedom to choose what to do about it: deny it for as long as possible, transition, commit suicide.

Usually when someone begins hormone treatment, there is an unexplainable feeling of peace and "rightness", even if there are no physical changes to show for it (the physical results are very variable). At that early stage the process is reversible, so if someone suspects that they are on the wrong track, all is not lost. Most transwomen describe transition as an emergence from the hell of trying to live a life as something they never were; there is no way they would ever want to go back. I have never heard of anyone becoming 'un-trans' as the result of hormone treatment but there have been a few well-publicised reversion cases; people who were mis-diagnosed as trans when their problems were actually coming from some other cause.

[moonshadow]

Very interesting, and thank you for the straight forward response! It is amazingly difficult to get people to discuss the "science" of transgender. When I ask critical questions, often times they take it as a judgemental attack, and that's just not so. I just want to know... that's all.

That's an interesting thought, but the word "decide" gives a false impression of freedom to choose; "recognise" would describe the process better. There is no choice about being transgender, but there is a degree of freedom to choose what to do about it: deny it for as long as possible, transition, commit suicide.

Regarding the use of the word "decide", I'll hold to my terminology there. Everything is life is a choice. Even if we choose to be our self. Granted, our inner self is what it is and there's no changing that, or choice involved, unless it's by the way of a slow gradual personality shift that I think most people do as they age anyway (some call it getting wiser?) But for one to embrace an "inner self" as in the case of transgender people, well that is a choice. One could always continue being who society wants them to be, but as you said pelmut, often that choice leads to depression and suicide. But then again, if a man transitions into a woman because he believes he will fit in society better as a "she", then is that not still bowing to the will of society? Thus it is important to allow people the "freedom to choose" how they want to live their life.

For example, I could go the full route, take hormones, transform myself into a woman, even go so far as SRS, but deep down in my heart of hearts, I have no desire to go that far. Despite the fact that I believe I have a female soul for the most part, I'm frankly just too lazy to worry about changing that much of who I am on the inner level. I'm afraid that taking something that alters my brain chemistry will change who I am, and I like who I am. But that's just me. We all must decide how far we want to go.

Frankly, if my inner self depended a pharmaceutical company (hormones), and the need to take medicine every day for the rest of my life just to make my soul match my outer body, I would find that depressing, and would make me feel like my life was nothing more than a charade. But again, that's me, and how my mind works. I have come to the "gender" issue with regards to where I stand as: to be happy with who I am, and how Nature made me, or to be whatever a pill makes me. I choose the former.

Now again, let me just say I am not trying to degrade transgendered people who go the full route, hey- whatever makes them happy. I'm simply pointing out you omitted one option above.. and that is to just be content with who you are. That was the choice I made. The option to be simply a "feminine man" mustn't be overlooked or discarded. And if we count feminine men and masculine women in the transgender classification that I'd say we move out of the 2% range of transgendered people in the populous. With that added classification, I'd say most women are transgender, they just don't apply the label, and a fair number of men might be loosely defined as transgender too.

If we count transgendered as anyone who doesn't live by strict gender roles, then I'd even go so far as to say that 98% of people ARE transgender. When we consider what basis our current gender roles have, what makes a woman act like a woman and a man act like a man, it's all stereotypical. It's all arbitrary! In Nature, the women bear the young, and the men inseminate the women. Everything beyond that, regarding what we wear, drive, speak, do, the jobs we have, our roles in society is the result of social evolution. In our quest to put a label on everything, we forget that really- none of it matters. At the end of the day, we are who we are. Provided we're not bringing harm to others, society should let us be who we are. If Bob wants to become Bobbie, or vice versa that's his/her business, and his/her choice.

To me, taking medicine, and altering my body simply to measure up to society's expectation of a "man" or a "woman" seems contrary to the will of my inner self. But that's just my situation. I guess that's why I never really considered myself transgender, and I still feel like most transgendered people who were to interview me, and my ideals would just label me a "man in a skirt".... and I'm fine with that. I feel if I were to call myself transgender, I'd lock myself into a gender role, albeit a female one, and I couldn't be a "man" when I needed to be. I don't like being locked into things, so I try not to label myself.

[moonshadow]

I hope nobody is getting ill about what I'm writing on this thread. I know it's a very sensitive issue for a lot of people (must be all that estrogen). But really what it all boils down to is women have been acting like men for the better part of five decades at least, and nobody calls them "transgendered". Why all of a sudden if men want to act like women then we must refer to them as trans?

I don't know, the double standard just kind of bugs me. Women are allowed to be women regardless of what they do, and are only considered transgender if they say they are, yet this doesn't apply to men? A masculine woman is still considered a woman, and yet a feminine man "has issues". I don't know...... just doesn't seem right.

[Caultron]

Well, certainly a lot of things have changed in the past five decades. One in particular is that many more people now believe that gender diaspora (male brain in female body, female brain in male body) is real and that it legitimately deserves treatment, even among children.

And part of transitioning to one's true mental gender is obviously to adopt the appearance of that gender, including clothes.

But just wanting to wear a skirt doesn't, at least to me, indicate full-grown gender diaspora. Maybe it's 1% or 5% or whatever gender diasporic (or not) but I don't think just because you want to wear a skirt means you want hormones and surgery and a new full-time sex.

The cases that appear in the media, however, do tend to be full gender diaspora, and that may lead to an incorrect one-to-one association of wearing a skirt and wanting a full sex-change.

But on the good side, any blurring of the 100% male - 100% female dichotomy probably works in our favor.

[Fred in Skirts]

I hope nobody is getting ill about what I'm writing on this thread. I know it's a very sensitive issue for a lot of people (must be all that estrogen). But really what it all boils down to is women have been acting like men for the better part of five decades at least, and nobody calls them "transgendered". Why all of a sudden if men want to act like women then we must refer to them as trans? I don't know, the double standard just kind of bugs me. Women are allowed to be women regardless of what they do, and are only considered transgender if they say they are, yet this doesn't apply to men? A masculine woman is still considered a woman, and yet a feminine man "has issues". I don't know...... just doesn't seem right.

As for getting ill about the topic in question I certainly am not. I instead am getting an education from this thread. It is helping me to understand what others are going through and what I went through when I first started to wear women's clothes (skirts). I am quite happy to be who I feel I am just a man being himself, not trying to be a woman or anything else. I wear skirts for the comfort they provide and the styles and colors I like. I also wear woman's tops at times as well again for the comfortable feeling of the cloth they are made from.

Do I consider myself trans-gender? No I do not! Just because I wear a piece of clothing that some "idiot" in the past stated in no uncertain terms was women's wear and the general public took as gospel means nothing to me.

I have decided in my old age to stop trying to fit in to someone else's idea of who I am, I decided to He!! with the sheeple who can't see the trees for the forest. As I have seen stated elsewhere, "I am me I am gloriously me".

Fred

[dillon]

Well, certainly a lot of things have changed in the past five decades. One in particular is that many more people now believe that gender diaspora (male brain in female body, female brain in male body) is real and that it legitimately deserves treatment, even among children.

And part of transitioning to one's true mental gender is obviously to adopt the appearance of that gender, including clothes.

But just wanting to wear a skirt doesn't, at least to me, indicate full-grown gender diaspora. Maybe it's 1% or 5% or whatever gender diasporic (or not) but I don't think just because you want to wear a skirt means you want hormones and surgery and a new full-time sex.

The cases that appear in the media, however, do tend to be full gender diaspora, and that may lead to an incorrect one-to-one association of wearing a skirt and wanting a full sex-change.

But on the good side, any blurring of the 100% male - 100% female dichotomy probably works in our favor.

You were close, Caultron, but the term is actually gender dysphoria, not diaspora, although there may be a bit of spontaneous dispora, like the emergence of mushrooms in a lawn in the late summer, since many "trans-" people are feeling the freedom and the importance of finally living as the gender which they know themselves to be. Dysphoria is a technical term from the DSM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnosti ... _Disorders though there is a growing opinion that calling it a psychiatric condition is out-dated thinking, and, like homosexuality, that gender dysphoria should not be regarded as a disorder. However, part of the reason that it's still listed is that when counseling or other therapy is sought, there often has to be a rote diagnosis in order for many health insurance plans to pick up a portion of the cost; presumably that could include some costs associated with physically transitioning, such as hormone therapy, though I am not sure if the ACA includes any coverage of orchiectomy, vaginoplasty, or other related cosmetic "gender-reconciliation" surgical procedures.

[Orange Apple]

A few comments on the transgender topic, all my personal opinion and interpretation.

I think that the term "transgender" is most commonly used today to refer to an individual who decides to make a social transition from presenting as one gender to presenting as the other gender. The term I would use for someone who pushes boundaries or just doesn't fit in either gender is "genderqueer" or, if they want to be perceived as genderless, "androgynous". The term I would use for a male who wears a skirt is "a male who wears a skirt".

Notice my use of "social transition". Not all transgender people want surgery, and although most of them use hormones, not all of them even do that. There is a vast range of ways that people cope with this issue. Some simply adopt behaviors that are stereotypical to the opposite gender. Some alter their clothing. Some take hormones. Some have various surgeries, although there's a big range there too.

As others have pointed out, gender is not binary, and you don't choose your gender. There are many tradeoffs. People wrestle with the transition decision like any other life-changing decision (marriage, having kids, school choice, etc.) Transition is hard. It creates its own set of problems and issues, and sometimes people find that those are worse than the ones that they were trying to address in the transition process, and they de-transition.

If you want to try to get inside the heads of people who are wrestling with these issues, I'd recommend a visit to Reddit. Reddit has discussions (named subReddits) on many different transgender-related topics. There are several general discussions (AskTransgender, TranSpace; more specific discussions for male-to-female, female-to-male, genderqueer, agender; and focused forums like transprogrammer, transgamers, and transparents. You can read these without even registering at Reddit. This is a really good way to see the specific issues that these folks are dealing with. It can be a real education. If you go to https://www.reddit.com/r/TransSpace/ you'll find yourself in one of these, and there's a list of many related subReddits in the navigation pane on the right.

To bring it back to SkirtCafe . . . We have a very diverse group here [how's that for an understatement?] who share an interest in wearing skirts. We have differing motivations. Some of us, if we had been born a few decades earlier, might have decided we were transgender and been now living as the other gender. Some of us simply enjoy wearing skirts because, well, we can. It does not matter! There is no right or wrong to being who you are. If anything I've said here gives the impression that I'm trying to present "right" and "wrong", that's certainly not my intent.

[Caultron]

You were close, Caultron, but the term is actually gender dysphoria, not diaspora...

Sorry, the autocorrect demon strikes again.

Or was I just too lazy to double-check? Hmm...