Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Clippings from news sources involving fashion freedom and other gender equality issues.
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DonaldG
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Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by DonaldG »

I have just signed this petition, which calls on Retailers in the UK to stop telling children that certain clothing types, colours, styles and themes are either for boys, or for girls.

I signed because I believe gender stereotyping is dangerous and starts in childhood with “boys clothes/toys” and “girls clothes/toys” conditioning children to a lifetime of seeing the female's role as gentle, pink, caring etc. and the male's as powerful, controlling, aggressive, etc. Also because I feel, as I'm sure most of us here do, that it is very unfair to resrtict children's choices to "their side of the isle", allowing them to access only half of what is available.

I am surprised that after nearly a week there are less than 1000 signatures. It would be great is some of us here could add our support by signing the petition, and raising awareness through Facebook, Twitter, etc.

https://www.change.org/p/uk-childrenswe ... r-for-boys
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Couya
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Couya »

Although I quite agree with the idea, I am not surprised that few people have signed such a petition. Most parents are terrible anxious that their little boys become big macho men and their little girls become good little women -- and no messing about !!! Modern ideas are ok for the outside world, but NYMBY.

Martin
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denimini
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by denimini »

I just heard an interesting program on Radio National last week:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... ng/6970114
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
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Sinned
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Sinned »

I have added my signature - now 1,018 contributors.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
Stu
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Stu »

I have mixed feelings.

I don't have a problem with a general expectation of gender conformity, to be honest. I am inclined to believe there are evolutionary reasons why males are more likely to be inclined towards both construction activities and risk-taking activities while girls are more likely to foster nurturing and romantic inclinations. So long as, in recognising that these are generalities and not straighjackets, I believe they should be acknowledged.

I also think that it is perfectly natural for younger children in particular to have curiosity about the other sex and their accoutrements and may want to explore gender ideas and experiment. This should not be actively encouraged, but nor should it be discouraged - and certainly a child should never be chided or mocked for such behaviour.

I am strongly against notions of social engineering, political correctness and trying to bully businesses towards progressivist ideas. If a toy shop wants to depict girls playing with dolls and boys playing with trucks - fine - that is their right. The upbringing should be such that a boy who wants a doll or a girl who wants a truck should feel confident enough to say that and this isn't an issue which gives us the right to dictate to manufacturers, retailers or advertisers.

Pink is also something which is currently a bone of contention and I don't think any colour should be appropriated by either gender any more than garments should (skirts included). While blue is sometimes regarded as the traditional boys' colour, that really only pertains to babies; no parent would worry about putting a three year old girl in a blue sweater. Conversely, boys are pretty much banned from owning anything pink from birth until they reach around age six or seven, when they might be able to get away with a pink shirt - but nothing else pink, and certainly no pink toys. I think we have become a bit ridiculous about that. Some girls, however, seem to have absorbed a notion that, if pink is offered, pink must be the choice, and that is equally absurd.

Males and females are not the same: we are a sexually dimorphic species and structuralism plays a role in our very being. By that I mean that we males are attracted to things female because (a) they are female and, equally, (b) they are not male - and vice-versa for female attraction. As the French say, vive la difference.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by dillon »

Stu, you have excellent points and observations. I too have mixed feelings. As much as I support the rights of everyone of any gender or sexual identification or no identification at all, I share your concern over the aproach. We have to remember that there can be a backlash, and that if we do not keep a sense of tolerance for the difference of opinion, then we cannot expect tolerance for our own points of view. That is probably even more true in the US than in Europe. I tend to agree with a quote from Garrison Keillor "The most un-American thing you can say is 'You can't say that.' " I have some sympathy for businesses, whose natural MO is to take the path of least resistance, and respect for businesses who lead by example in these matters. I think it's better to articulate opinions with respect and reason and compassion than to make very arbitrary demands that may end up being counter-productive. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Mugs-n-such »

Just my opinion, but I think Stu and Dillon's posts are EXCELLENT!
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skirtingtoday
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by skirtingtoday »

I have added my vote (and comment) too - now 1062 signatures.

Ross
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:... we are a sexually dimorphic species ...
We are a sexually polymorphic species but only the pairing of a male with a female will propagate further generations. The spontaneous appearance of non-binary sexual characteristics is much higher than is commonly supposed; but it can never be inherited, so it always dies out with each generation. If there were a way in which non-binary people could propagate, the incidence of non-binary in the population would be very significant within a few generations.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by moonshadow »

The only issue I see here, is looking back, I can indeed vaguely remember being that age (maybe 7 or 8 years old), and while I did like to put on my foster sister's clothes and wear mom's shoes from time to time, playing around the house, I never really considered it a "gender" thing. In fact, at that age, I barley knew the difference between a boy and a girl anyway. On the flip side, I had no issue wearing "boy's" clothes. It just never occurred to this seven year old (me) that wearing sister's dress was "wrong".

As far as what I wore to school and out and about, it was my parents that picked it out for me. I seldom saw the inside of a clothing store, as I hated it anyway and would always squirm about.

Point being, maybe I was a total child moron, maybe out of touch with other children... but how a department store was arranged never really seemed to matter to me. I was too busy coloring, playing with trucks and cars, hide and seek, and house. And yes, I recall being the "wife" a few times. Again... being so innocent, didn't see what the big deal was.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, for the most part, I don't see where it matters.... the parents are going to call the shots on what the kids wear anyway.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Stu »

pelmut wrote:
Stu wrote:... we are a sexually dimorphic species ...
We are a sexually polymorphic species but only the pairing of a male with a female will propagate further generations. The spontaneous appearance of non-binary sexual characteristics is much higher than is commonly supposed; but it can never be inherited, so it always dies out with each generation. If there were a way in which non-binary people could propagate, the incidence of non-binary in the population would be very significant within a few generations.
I know that view is fashionable in some circles, but it is not one I share. Basically, people are either male or female, depending upon whether or not they have a Y-chromosome. There are exceptions to that, but these are genetic disorders, or other kinds of disorder, that make an individual intersex. The "gender spectrum" relates to less than 2% of individuals - that's what makes them the exception. It is the same as any other genetic abnormality, such as Down's Syndrome, except it relates to an individual's sex.

Of course, that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't accommodate such individuals: we absolutely should. If someone is determined as genetically male but has female characteristics, or vice-versa, or if they are true hermaphrodites, then I firmly believe they get to choose whether they are male, female, androgynous etc - whatever makes them comfortable - and I believe we should respect their decision and treat them accordingly. The same applies to trans people: it's their call. But the default is a simple binary: male or female.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by pelmut »

Stu wrote:
pelmut wrote:
Stu wrote:... we are a sexually dimorphic species ...
We are a sexually polymorphic species ...
I know that view is fashionable in some circles, but it is not one I share. Basically, people are either male or female, depending upon whether or not they have a Y-chromosome. There are exceptions to that, but these are genetic disorders, or other kinds of disorder, that make an individual intersex.
We need to be very careful about the use of the word "disorder", it implies that one condition is right and another one is wrong, this could be quite upsetting or even potentially offensive to someone who was born intersex. The intersex condition is just another one (albeit rare) of the possible natural states of the human species.

(I am intergender, but I don't consider it a disorder, it's just part of who I am.)
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by moonshadow »

Well, again I don't think it makes much difference. I had some very feminine tenancies growing up, yet was always discouraged by my father's side of the family. If a bio-boy has a female soul, it doesn't matter how much it's repressed in childhood, it seems that for the most part... the "truth will out" sooner or later.

I don't know. This thread is rather difficult to follow. Sometimes it almost seems like gender can be moved right up there with politics and religion as people tend to be just as passionate about it, and it's just as confusing. It also seems somewhat arbitrary. Because I enjoy many activities that bio-women enjoy, some may say my gender is that of a girl. But who decided that these activities were for girls anyway? It's not like it's written in the stars or anything. What authority decided that girls are made of sugar and spice and everything nice, and boys are made of snips and snails and puppy dog tails?

You can remove the stereotype's from store shelves, but that won't change the parents methods for child rearing. And in my own instance, my father and his family tried everything he could to get me into boy things.... it just never took.

I won't sign for two reason, number one, it's in the UK and doesn't really apply to me. Number two, good stores will cater to their market. A petition is not needed to change how stores market their wares. If enough customers find fault with how it is currently, then they will shop at more gender neutral establishments, and the old dinosaurs will either have to adapt or go extinct. If I were running a clothing store, and my business catered to hundreds of thousands of customers daily, and I was presented a petition of 1,000 people to do it a different way.... a way mind you that could be bad for business, I'd probably laugh. Not everybody believes children should be allowed to determine their own gender, and my personal thoughts on that are beside the point, the point being that the store runs a risk of their patrons spending their money at more "traditional" establishments.

I'm sure it's the same reason walmart sells crosses but not pentacles. Major stores always cater to majority trends.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Gordon »

Well said Moonshadow and I agree 100%.
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Re: Let Clothes Be Clothes petition

Post by Stu »

pelmut

We mustn't shy away from what is true, or what we believe to be true, even if some are offended by it. Therein lies the evil of political correctness and censorship. There are different ways of perceiving issues like this and nobody should be able to control the discourse.

One could argue that any state is a "natural" state - including Down's, cystic fibrosis and other congenital birth defects. That said, I would differentiate intersex conditions from the others in one key respect, i.e. that they don't necessarily have a negative impact on the lives of those who have been born with them. Indeed, they are, as you say, just part of who they are. But I also think it is taking that narrative a bit far to claim that these are just natural variations like eye colour.
Last edited by crfriend on Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quoting [CRF]
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