Whither SkirtCafe?

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Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby crfriend » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:26 am

Or, "Have we outlived our usefulness?"

This notion has dogged me for the past weeks, and I'm wondering what's going on. Have we as a community become obsolete or stale? Have we outlived our usefulness? Have we become moot?

The above ideas struck me because, in large part, we've managed to prove that guys -- as guys -- can go out in pretty much whatever skirted garment we want, beyond the "invisible denim", and not, in most places, get hassled for it. We have found that we are accepted for ourselves by all but the most narrow of minds, and that in large part those around us either don't care what we're wearing or are intrigued by it. Negative comments seem rare, and even if we receive them we can frequently turn the argument on its head and possibly make the detractor think about the idea.

So, have we achieved what we set out to do? Is the point proved? A lack of new community members (save spammers, that is) seems to indicate it. The quiet in the Cafe recently strongly hints that nobody really has much of anything to say -- even a "Hello" it seems. If it wasn't for the air-conditioning that keeps the computers from overheating the crickets out on the veranda would be deafening.

True enough, guys wearing skirts are still rare as hens' teeth, so we haven't won on that count, but certainly we know in our minds that we have the choice in the morning of whether to shove our legs "down one pipe or two" -- and quite possibly did all along.. Excluding kilts, I've seen precisely two other men wearing skirts in my life; Sapphire states a similar number -- one of whom is a fellow member here. So, even though we have the option -- will it ever "catch on" in the mainstream? I don't know. I hope so, and I hope that the community here will continue on; but, the silence right now is profound.

Then again, perhaps everybody is away on holiday.
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby ChrisM » Sat Aug 14, 2010 12:33 pm

I hear you, and I confirm your observation, but I will counsel that we not take any radical steps anytime soon.

Internet activity goes through slow cycles, which in my unscientific view are about 12 months long. On my yachting lists our slow period is (understandably) winter, and the conversation ALWAYS turns to British sports cars. I know that in my own life August is a very busy time as school re-starts and I start preparing lectures, organizing classes, etc. Perhaps the slow-down is just "summer in the Cafe."

So my point is: I am glad you raised the question, and I hope we will discuss it, but I would counsel a policy of making no changes until the quiet situation has been true for a full twelve months.

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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby RichardA » Sat Aug 14, 2010 1:37 pm

This came up a while back, but I will say it again, you can only talk so much on a skirt/kilt after that comes going out, with some of you it seems so ordinary nothing happens, no one notices, in my little village wearing a kilt is a big deal and people either give you a strange look or ask you what the occasion is, wearing a skirt would be "God that guys flipped" as far as I know I'm the only one in my village who has a kilt and wears it, but there could be loads of guys wearing skirts at home and to frightened to go outside as they would be labelled as gay and could end up in a fight with some of the young kids we have round the neighbourhood.
To answer the main question no I think some people go into quite mode and become readers and not writers, I'm one of them I come on here at least 3-4 times a day just to look to see what's gone down, but hardly ever post unless something catches my eye like this post
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby crfriend » Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:00 pm

ChrisM wrote:I hear you, and I confirm your observation, but I will counsel that we not take any radical steps anytime soon.

Thanks for that, Chris, and rest assured that no "radical action" is contemplated at this time.

I do not recall a similar "dead period" before, but can certainly data-mine the history if I get curious enough.

RichardA wrote:This came up a while back, but I will say it again, you can only talk so much on a skirt/kilt after that comes going out [...]

That's true enough, but I've always believed that SkirtCafe was about encouraging and supporting guys who were curious about the notion of skirted garments and hadn't really given it a go yet. The bottom line in that is that the more guys who adopt the style, the more mainstream it will become -- and this certainly includes kilts. It's about "walking the walk", not just talking about it idly.

RichardA wrote: [... I]n my little village wearing a kilt is a big deal and people either give you a strange look or ask you what the occasion is, wearing a skirt would be "God that guys flipped" [...]

I'm not sure how big your "village" is, but I live in a small New England town of slightly more than 6,000 souls -- and it's got quite the bit of "small town" mentality to it. I may be looked upon as being a bit "strange", but nobody has ever challenged me seriously on the matter and I have a pretty good rapport with most of the folks who I meet, including some of the town politicians. I think the key to that is my absolute refusal to apologise for something that, while possibly viewed as "odd", is certainly not wrong.

True enough, there are likely plenty of pockets in the world where it'd be folly -- or worse -- to give non-trouser looks a go, and there are plenty of narrow minds out there; should we be afraid of people and places like that? I'd like to think not. That may not be realistic, but one can always hope.
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby RichardA » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:33 pm

I'm not sure how big your "village" is, but I live in a small New England town of slightly more than 6,000 souls

just had a look we have 6000 too in my village
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby Since1982 » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:20 pm

Seems to me SkirtCafe has gained about 10 new members in the last few months. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. We have a happy, healthy site and it's growing. What are sites supposed to do if not have happy members and propagate? :roll: :alien: :hide: :alien:
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby john62 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:32 am

I come to the site almost everyday but only post occassionally, why only occassionally is probably because other poster's have already said what I think or perhaps I think my views are not all that interesting, anyhow what this site does do is give me confidence that there are others out there that feel the same as I do and therefore am not alone in my differnce.

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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby Milfmog » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:08 pm

It seems to me that the main value of this site is in convincing readers that they are not alone as skirt wearing males and that a preference for skirts over bifurcated garments is nothing to be ashamed of. Shared tales of uneventful excursions without trousers are good for the confidence of folks who are still wishing they could wear what they choose, when and where they choose to.

The primary issue for the site is probably how we can increase the number of new and curious skirt wearing males who read and post here. I am afraid I do not have any easy answers to that question. Certainly posting links to this forum on other skirts for men sites will only antagonise the owners of those sites and would be preaching to the converted anyway. It might be possible to persuade some of the cross dressing sites to place permanent links to the café on thier home pages with a note that people who had found themselves on CD sites, but who really did not want to pass as women, might be happier here. I suspect that if we were to go that route we should reciprocate with a link back to those sites for people that did not fit the criteria of wanting to present themselves as men while skirted. What I don't know is how (or if) links to and from CD sites would affect the listing of this forum on search engines.

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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby RichardA » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:14 pm

Good post Ian, but I for one do not want to be associated with cross dresses I'm a man in a kilt or skirts, I have nothing against them in fact each to his own, but shout me down if I'm wrong, but the skirtcafe was set up to promote guys in skirts/kilts and nothing more, if you want to go down the CD route I'm out of here. <rant over> :bom:
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby Milfmog » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:58 pm

Richard,

I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which almost certainly means that I did not express myself as well as I should have so I will attempt to clarify my position.

While I do not have any desire to promote the CD / TV scene I have nothing against others exercising their right to chose to think differently to me. I have no interest in cross dressing and do not wish to be bracketed with cross dressers in the minds of the general public. However, like many others, when I first discovered the comfort of a sarong and later a kilt, I had no idea that there were any resources for men in skirts who want to present themselves as men.

Searching the web threw up loads of CD sites before I eventually stumbled across Skirt Café, but once I found the café I knew it was what I'd been looking for. (I had found several kilt forums, but the rules and narrow perspectives of the regular posters alienated me instantly; I really don't like being told what I may or may not do, wear or think.)

My proposal for reciprocal links is simply to enable men who wish to wear kilts or skirts, but not to present themselves as female, to find the café more easily than I did. As a secondary benefit we may also find that any natural CDs who find the café would follow links to other sites that are better able to meet their needs.

Have fun,


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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby Since1982 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:04 pm

I'm with you Richard, but this line in our by-laws sort of opens the site up for crossdressers, no?

We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices.


I'd think crossdressing might be considered an "any potential choice" no? I've expected that line to bring in some hard core CD's for a while now. I think we've been very lucky it hasn't. I don't personally have anything to say about it, I'm just a member. I think the bosses already know my feelings concerning CD's and TV's here. I plan to stay a member, so whatever the bosses decide to do, they do. :D :D
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby Big and Bashful » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:25 pm

Since1982 wrote:I'm with you Richard, but this line in our by-laws sort of opens the site up for crossdressers, no?

We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices.


I'd think crossdressing might be considered an "any potential choice" no? I've expected that line to bring in some hard core CD's for a while now. I think we've been very lucky it hasn't. I don't personally have anything to say about it, I'm just a member. I think the bosses already know my feelings concerning CD's and TV's here. I plan to stay a member, so whatever the bosses decide to do, they do. :D :D



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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby crfriend » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:19 pm

Since1982 wrote:[... T]his line in our by-laws sort of opens the site up for crossdressers, no?
We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices.

I'd think crossdressing might be considered an "any potential choice" no? I've expected that line to bring in some hard core CD's for a while now. I think we've been very lucky it hasn't.

Interestingly, it's precisely that line that has historically caused convultions to the SkirtCafe community -- yet, we always seem to survive it.

I will posit that the line is not an opening to, as AMM calls the notion, "Orthodox Crossdressing" but rather an acknowledgement that there's more to the matter than just the skirt. The skirts we wear -- of whatever type -- are, just like any other piece of clothing, ultimately reasonably unremarkable in and of themselves; it's what we put together as entire looks that makes the garment shine. Whether that overall look is hyper-casual as in a T-shirt and a "casual kilt", some of the attempts I make using waistcoats and other accessories (and that's not a "dirty word" by the way) that are designed to function well in a professional setting, or some of the other looks we've seen for festive occasions.

What we need to bear in mind is that "Orthodox Crossdressing" is about more than the clothes one wears: it's about altering one's mannerisms, voice, and outward appearance to "pass" as (some might less charitably call it "ape") a woman. I'll call attention to Bob's Wiki piece as a backup to this argument. True enough, we've had our scrapes with the Orthodoxy here, and it's pretty plain when we do -- they claim to be trying to "get in touch with their 'feminine side'", claim that femininity is somehow inherently "superior" to masculinity, and tend to be somewhat giggly about "dressing like a girl". We -- or at least the majority of us -- are not like that at all; we merely want the ability to dress in manners that we find comfortable or offer us options for expressing ourselves that a pair of Dockers just cannot. We do not take on alternate identities when so dressed -- we are ourselves and are happy being ourselves; there are no ulterior motives. We also understand that even if one does not adopt the mannerisms of the Orthodoxy, that there is a tipping point -- a point where one looks more like a parody of womanhood than a man wearing a skirted garment; this tipping point is always with us, and for the most part, we tend to stop short of it lest we be misconstrued in public.

Bearing the above in mind, I feel it's only fair that I say that I do not begrudge the Orthodoxy their aims and goals -- this falls under the "whatever floats your boat" umbrella; however, I will state that I regard the "Orthodox Crossdresser" as somebody entirely different from the "bloke in a skirt" mentality that we try to espouse here, and are almost alone on the "Net in doing so.

So, give the masthead another go, and take the above contrast into consideration. Whilst possibly not optimal, those words were very carefully chosen.
Last edited by crfriend on Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Edited a bunch of times because we've got a thunderstorm locally and I'm waiting for the power to qu
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby skirted_in_SF » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:49 am

Milfmog wrote:It seems to me that the main value of this site is in convincing readers that they are not alone as skirt wearing males and that a preference for skirts over bifurcated garments is nothing to be ashamed of. Shared tales of uneventful excursions without trousers are good for the confidence of folks who are still wishing they could wear what they choose, when and where they choose to.

This site has certainly had that effect on me. I have gone from only wearing skirts at home, on a couple of evening excursions and a few fast point to point walks where no one would know me; to where I now wear to places I frequent and I'm known by sight if not by name.

Milfmog wrote:The primary issue for the site is probably how we can increase the number of new and curious skirt wearing males who read and post here.

I have run into guys at other sites who have expressed an interest in wearing a skirt but were afraid. I post a reply suggesting they take a look at SkirtCafe to find a community of men who have been there and done that. I don't know if it has led to any new visitors, but I'll keep spreading the word.
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Re: Whither SkirtCafe?

Postby Milfmog » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:22 am

Since1982 wrote:I'm with you Richard, but this line in our by-laws sort of opens the site up for crossdressers, no?

We recognize a diversity of styles our members feel comfortable wearing, and do not exclude any potential choices.


However, if you read on, following the link in the masthead, you will find:
However, this is NOT a transvestite or crossdresser forum. We are committed to a fundamentally masculine gender identity --- masculine name and pronouns. We call it "gender honesty." Beyond that, what it means to be a man is individual and open to discussion

I reckon that makes it pretty clear that this is NOT a cross dressing forum.

What I don't understand is why even mentioning that CD forums exist and may be easier to find than this one (or Skirts4men) should cause people to build up such a head of steam. All I suggested was one possibility to make the café easier to find. If people don't like that suggestion, that's fine; I'll not take offence, but why not just say that? Certainly there is no suggestion in my post that the café should be a CD community, nor that I would want to be part of such a community.

So, does anyone else have any suggestions to make the café easier to find for folks who know nothing about men in skirts?

Have fun,


Ian.
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