Re-normalized Worldview

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isobar
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Post by isobar »

I don't think Bob's post was about <censored>, I think it was about the perils of inhabiting a closed community where the continual validation of any random cultural assertion leads to its acceptance as 'normal'. Like it or not, this happens here too!
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Post by davereporter »

Yes, it is true that in our virtual community we can feel safe and our views can sometimes get distorted. It would be nice to have the freedom to wear whatever we want and some guys claim that they do - but realistically I have only ever seen a handful of men wearing skirts in the physical world - some were Scots, a few were monks and there are a few female impersonators who clearly tried to pass themselves off as woman.

I am probably the only guy around my side of town who has actually worn a skirt to go shopping or for a run. That is in a fairly liberal city of 3.6 million people. Let's face it, the few hundred of us are a very small minority.

The issue that I suspect is being raised here is that being different can invoke fear in some people. Fear is irrational - that means that some people see the skirt, can't work out what is happening rationally so they let the irrational fear response take over.

What are some things that people can fear about men.... terr*r*st, p*rv*rt, r*p*st, p*d*f*le etc. etc.

As long as we are a strange minority some people will fear us. The only way this will ever change is if more men wear skirts so that the mass consciousness thinks of us as freaky but safe. That is called the 100 monkey principle - once that happens other men will feel safe enough to wear skirts and they may be considered normal attire.

One thing I have learnt from my skirt wearing adventures is just how dangerous judgement actually is. Another thing is once I have left the group (I only visit occassionally) you also realise that you are very different and you have to be prepared to carry the consequences for that difference. To be honest, most of the time I am not strong or stubborn enough which is why I generally now wear pants.

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A miniscule minority...

Post by crfriend »

davereporter wrote:I am probably the only guy around my side of town who has actually worn a skirt to go shopping or for a run. That is in a fairly liberal city of 3.6 million people. Let's face it, the few hundred of us are a very small minority.
Correct. We are a very small minority. But, I'd posit that on the whole we're a very "harmless" minority when it comes to the criminal conduct code.
davereporter wrote:The issue that I suspect is being raised here is that being different can invoke fear in some people. Fear is irrational - that means that some people see the skirt, can't work out what is happening rationally so they let the irrational fear response take over.
Here is truth. Fear is, by the very nature of it, irrational -- and that's precisely what makes it dangerous in an otherwise rational world (or one that would like to think itself rational). The fear must be overcome -- but that can only happen if a substantial minority or a good percentage of a majority defies convention. It's not easy -- it's never been easy. The question we need to ask ourselves is, "Is it worth it?" What comes from that answer is the determinant.
davereporter wrote:As long as we are a strange minority some people will fear us. The only way this will ever change is if more men wear skirts so that the mass consciousness thinks of us as freaky but safe.
Too true. But, if nobody "puts the wedge in" then "our" notion of "fashion freedom" will never get the exposure it rationally warrants.
davereporter wrote:One thing I have learnt from my skirt wearing adventures is just how dangerous judgement actually is. Another thing is once I have left the group (I only visit occassionally) you also realise that you are very different and you have to be prepared to carry the consequences for that difference. To be honest, most of the time I am not strong or stubborn enough which is why I generally now wear pants.
This, whilst realistic, is a rather sad commentary. Of course "we're" "different" -- we've got the cubes to challenge "common wisdom" directly and forthrightly (and, to use the modern term, "in its face"). But nothing ultimately survives in a static environment (because the environment itself changes); why not try to actively "steer" it?

My experience is that I get more positive comments whilst skirted than negative ones. This should count for something. Once in a great while I'll get a negative, but those are actually fairly rare. I do appreciate that I'm on the outer bound of what's acceptable for men to wear in the modern world, and I accept that; I understand that I might not be "taken as seriously" whilst skirted as I would whilst wearing trousers. This is merely a "reality check" that the lot of us have to deal with on a day-to-day basis. So, the upshot of this missive might be summed up as, "fight for your rights when you can, accept that you cannot always do so, and have the wisdom to know the difference". (Knowing where to hid the bodies of those who disagree falls into another thread! :) )

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Re-normalized Worldview

Post by Bob »

This is a thread, as best verbalized by isobar:
I just read through the article and I see the parallel in how a different worldview becomes normalised within a closed community, and how members can forget how different that worldview is.
I also think we need to consider how realistic our goals are. Obviously, the goals of social change of the on-line communities discussed in the article will never come to pass. I think we have a far better chance.

The article in question is here.

The previous thread relating to this topic has been deleted, due to reasons pointed out by one of our members. I have moved some of the previous discussion, but have deleted discussion with the "p" word due to search engine issues. Further mention of the "p" word on this thread will be deleted for the same reason. Luckily, Google has not picked up on it.

I apologize to the community for having put us at unnecessary risk to begin with, and I hope for forgiveness.
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An "oops"

Post by crfriend »

Bob wrote:I apologize to the community for having put us at unnecessary risk to begin with, and I hope for forgiveness.
From me, you have it. Oversights happen by the best of folk from time to time. To not forgive would be less than human.

Sadly, we do not live in a rational world -- one governed by thought instead of passion -- and until we do, things will be rather dicey. Fortunately for "us" the sight of a bloke in a skirt is getting rather less unusual by the day.
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Post by Steven »

Bob wrote:
The previous thread relating to this topic has been deleted, due to reasons pointed out by one of our members. I have moved some of the previous discussion, but have deleted discussion with the "p" word due to search engine issues. Further mention of the "p" word on this thread will be deleted for the same reason. Luckily, Google has not picked up on it.

I apologize to the community for having put us at unnecessary risk to begin with, and I hope for forgiveness.
I think deleting it was a mistake, why hide from the "p" word in here? As you said, we are not "p"s I know I'm not, hopefully it does hold true for all those who are in here.

But so what if someone finds this site by searching on the "p" word?

Would they not find out that it's possible that a guy in a skirt is not a "p"?

Steven
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Post by Since1982 »

I must be really dense, what the Sam Hill is the "p" word??????
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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Post by boca »

Skip - Ped0phile (o replaced with zero). There was an article (as linked in bob's thread above) in the news/advocacy forum. It was deleted because Google might have picked up the keywords "Skirts for men" and "ped0phile" in the same context. However, I think Ped0phile shouldn't be deleted. It should just be used in discussion only in the context of "others people" who are sexually attracted to small children. That way even if ped0phile comes up with "skirts for men", the visitor will see that we are putting ped0phile in its place, not associating it with Skirts for Men.
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Post by The Satirist »

Steven wrote:I think deleting it was a mistake, why hide from the "p" word in here? As you said, we are not "p"s I know I'm not, hopefully it does hold true for all those who are in here.

But so what if someone finds this site by searching on the "p" word?

Would they not find out that it's possible that a guy in a skirt is not a "p"?

Steven
Funny you should say that. You can already find it. We are linked to that word and have been since 2002 when Bob Pettingell first typed it.

Here is the results of a search I've done in the archives of the "P" word.

http://www.tomscafe.org/forums2/search. ... chid=17533

Does this mean now that the archives will be deleted because they contain that word?
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Guess so

Post by Since1982 »

Satirist wrote:Does this mean now that the archives will be deleted because they contain that word?
Looks like they already have been deleted. I can't access anything with that link. :(
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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Post by The Satirist »

You're right! The link no longer works, but the archive hasn't been changed. If you go to the archive and search the word pedophile you'll find about 5 threads in which it appears.

Bob must be full of Paranoia and have an overwhelming "God syndrome."

This forum has been around since 1996 and those posts are an integral part of our history. The word that our personal "Stalin" is now censoring, is harmless. I would suggest that those who remember how Tom moderated the board, and those who know how Noodles moderated the board speak up in outrage at this "book burning."

This is no longer our forum. It seems to be Bobs personal soapbox for what he thinks is right and wrong. We no longer have a say! Lets hope our own personal Hitler doesn't start sending his soldiers to our homes to make sure we don't utter those words he's afraid of in public.

Tom and Noodles didn't micro manage like Bob is doing. If I had known it would be like this, I would have acted faster to stop it from happening before the transfer.
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Post by iain »

I think that's pretty unfair. bob put the stuff on there, got some criticism and withdrew it.

many people associated with this group might be so used to being outcasts that they are uncomfortable with acceptance. I notice that when noodles decided to jettison us all overboard to keep the place looking shiny, many people even thanked him. it was absurd. I think that kind of automatic yay-yay-saying is pretty inimical to the survival of any group, and what you want is someone who at least responds to criticism.

you really want to discuss the abuse of children like it's the weather? how can people even consider it? this endless tendency to roll endless piles of words about and wallow in the sound of their own sentences regardless of the topic is not appropriate to topics like the abuse of children. people pointed this out, me among them, because it's OUR site, and bob responded.
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Post by isobar »

iain wrote:why quote me..? whatever I wrote is still there..
Unless it had the word "paedophile" in it!
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Post by iain »

this really isn't a joke. if I thought you guys want to make jokes about this kind of abusive human behaviour, I'd leave this site and want nothing more to do with it.
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Post by Since1982 »

Thanks for at least defining the "p" word for me. I really hadn't taken note of it when or where it was discussed, must have missed that discussion. I get really confused these days when everyone seems to think everyone else can translate "P" and "n" and "b" and "q" to mean this or that without further explanation. Just like talking like this confuses me>> I w**t *o s** s******n*. would confuse me if I hadn't written it. :shake: When did we all start this new asterisks language anyway????:shifty:
I had to remove this signature as it was being used on Twitter. This is my OPINION, you NEEDN'T AGREE.

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