An Open Letter

Non-fashion, non-skirt, non-gender discussions. If your post is related to fashion, skirts or gender, please choose one of the forums above for it.
Gordon
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 570
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:30 pm
Location: Western Washington, USA

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Gordon »

With all respect Stevie D, I don't agree at all. This forum was not and is not designed for such discussions. It's been proven many times that the discussion turns heated and then name calling begins.

Besides, I for one do not wish to hear it here. It is not why I joined.

Like Moonshadow pointed out, the rules of this forum does not allow political discussion except for that which pertains to us guys wearing what we want. And I don't think that Trump et all has had anything to say on that subject yet.
-----------------------------
Namaste,
Gordon
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: An Open Letter

Post by crfriend »

Stevie D wrote:[...] It is inevitable that we want to air our strongly held views and I believe it is right that we should, for it is only through those processes that we can come to understand what is going on and perhaps come to terms with such huge changes. Keeping quiet about it (or being made to keep quiet) is potentially dangerous and allows those who would do (dare I say) bad things, to get away with it.

I'm all for keeping the political discussions going, but it has to be done in ways which are respectful to our fellows. That's the hardest part, but I believe it is worthwhile persevering. Max Ehrmann, in his famous free verse poem 'Desiderata' (1926) entreats us to "Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story." That is possibly the most important thing we have to do in these difficult and frankly scary times.
Stevie D brings up some very salient points in the above, which do bear strong consideration. It is with a heavy heart that I must step on this sort of discourse, and it is not down to an assumption that it's not important (it is) nor that it does not need airing (it does); my hand is forced by those who react solely on dogma alone and who (1) refuse to question that dogma or misplaced belief and who (2) violate the bounds of common decency in the way they communicate it. Unfortunately, I do not believe that we as a community can rise above these facts and the only way to "solve" the issue for the majority (and still maintain openness) would be to banish the small minority which action would immediately be decried as censorship and bias from both extremes -- even if (and perhaps especially if) -- it's nothing of the sort.

I am, and always have been, open to spirited debate so long as the basic ground rules are adhered to. Sadly, the place isn't quite as civilised as I thought.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Sinned
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 5804
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:28 pm
Location: York, England

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Sinned »

I agree that Stevie D is correct in that we are in a time of great uncertainty and in a sense we are reacting to that. I think that we cannot stop or affect the high level changes that are going to happen and the news can supply the facts albeit with a lot of comment that must not be taken as gospel. What I propose is that we discuss how these events that are happening are affecting our daily lives not which political regime is right or wrong.
I believe in offering every assistance short of actual help but then mainly just want to be left to be myself in all my difference and uniqueness.
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3226
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: An Open Letter

Post by denimini »

Sinned wrote:I agree that Stevie D is correct in that we are in a time of great uncertainty and in a sense we are reacting to that. I think that we cannot stop or affect the high level changes that are going to happen and the news can supply the facts albeit with a lot of comment that must not be taken as gospel. What I propose is that we discuss how these events that are happening are affecting our daily lives not which political regime is right or wrong.
I know it is difficult to ignore such a large elephant in the room but unless this elephant takes up wearing skirts or banning them, I think we should largely ignore it on this forum. I have looked and there are many other forums to vent anxiety or disgust on that topic. I have also seen so many threads here end up on politics, which is not what myself and most others are here for. If I wanted to talk about politics I would not choose to come here to do it - no offence intended.

My fears of climate change, atomic wars, fanatics, etc. are swayed into an appropriate perspective by listening to various experienced and learned people on ABC Radio National. I come here to get away from all that and to partake in a subject of enjoyable interest. I am grateful for the support offered helping me to have the confidence to wear skirts in public.

I don't mean to sound sanctimonious, I also enjoy many threads and posts in "Off Topic".
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: An Open Letter

Post by crfriend »

And so it came to pass this morning that I granted carte-blanche to the moderation team to step on any post that's overtly political and which does not intimately address the notion of a man's right to choose whatever type of garment he wishes to and to wear it proudly in public. Furthermore, instruction was given to step on, with great vigour, political posts that are demonstrably inflammable or which are clearly extremist or dogmatic. Additionally, caution was given that the moderation staff not take sides lest we do the sorts of damage that was already being done by a small minority.

So, there it is. "Rule 2" is now back in full force, and I feel the need to apologise to Stevie D who brought up some very good reasons to let things stand as they have for the past few months; however, something needed to be done lest the majority give up on the place in disgust as those at polar opposites sling invective at one another.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Pdxfashionpioneer
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:39 am
Location: Portland, OR, USA

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

I agree with Stevie. It's been said many, many times that the reason politics has gotten so extreme and mean-spirited is that people don't really have political discussions where pros and cons are debated. Most political discussions are held in echo chambers of like-minded folks. When people of opposing views chance upon one another and politics come up then just bang heads and keep turning up the volume, but not listening and not providing proofs for what they advocate for.

The first time since I joined the Café that it was proposed that we set up a topic heading for Politics the suggestion was rejected because we have the Off-Topic area. That made plenty of sense. Since then it has become clear that politics is crowding out all other discussion when it comes up and that it comes up in the darnedest places.

Maybe it is time for a Political section of the Café so politics is in a walled-off area where only those interested will go.

Question for Carl and the other software experts, if there some way that a Moderator could lift a post to a thread and dump it into the Political pool when the post is taking a non-political thread in that direction.

As Stevie said, there's a pressing need for places where people with opposing political views can discuss the issues and fewer and fewer places where people of opposing political views come in contact with one another. This is one. On the other hand, I'm as frustrated as anyone else by threads that start off on a skirting topic and it turns out to have become something entirely different.

Is a Political area worth trying?
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
Disaffected.citizen
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 6:16 am
Location: UK

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

I think the moderation team has been, generally, extremely tolerant of the political threads. Sure, some have been caught up in the wave of a thread and it is to their credit that they've managed to remain impartial in their moderation remit, whilst arguing their opinion robustly.

It is quite sad that the skill of robustly debating a topic has been lost with some of the contributors; and the manner of conduct has also been below the standard to which I've been accustomed since I first found the Cafe in 2007.

So, although I have enjoyed the debates, I'm supporting the decision of CRFriend; we had our chance and blew it!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: An Open Letter

Post by crfriend »

Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:As Stevie said, there's a pressing need for places where people with opposing political views can discuss the issues and fewer and fewer places where people of opposing political views come in contact with one another. This is one. On the other hand, I'm as frustrated as anyone else by threads that start off on a skirting topic and it turns out to have become something entirely different.
There are plenty of places where these views can -- and should be -- openly expressed and debated. However, until all the participants can behave in a civil manner that place is not here.

We can touch on it where considerations of suppressing the right of freedom of expression via clothing are concerned: that's on-topic; parroting dogma and slinging mud are not, and the latter forced my hand.

One last philosophical observation: "Divide and conquer" is perhaps the oldest strategy going -- and those in power know it. We as a species would be wise to recall that and not rise to the bait that would divide us. We have vastly more in common than we have differences.
Is a Political area worth trying?
No. Full stop.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 6994
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Warm Beach, Washington
Contact:

Re: An Open Letter

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote:
Is a Political area worth trying?
No. Full stop.
Agreed.

It was a valid try, but I'll admit I took various periods off of this site for a week or two at a time mainly because the atmosphere was getting too heated.

This is why I don't use facebook

This is why I seldom call my father

Lets let skirt cafe be a sanctuary from arbitrary politics and just keep it to skirt related issues (in regards to politics and religion). Hell, you can't even eat at a restaurant anymore without someone sitting down next to you wanting to strike up a political discussion. *sighs*

Lets get this site back to normal....

Thanks Carl. And by the way, let me say that the moderation team of this site is probably the most reasonable and understanding moderation team I've ever seen online. I recall the forums over on Live365 that got so out of hand they finally went on ultra-moderation status. You couldn't breathe the wrong way without getting a post deleted or modified by a moderator. I'd hate to see this site go that route because we can't behave like gentlemen.

On the other end of this spectrum, the boards over on Pagan Space are essentially a free-for-all where anything goes, and it can get downright toxic, and that's no fun either.

I spend so much time on this site not because I'm obsessed with skirts (I was, but now it's waned down a bit), but simply because I enjoy the discussions we have. Sadly not as much recently as I did when I first came here.

Hopefully that will be remedied, and perhaps maybe even discover "where have so many members gone"....
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
wsherman
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:12 pm
Location: North Dakota USA

Re: An Open Letter

Post by wsherman »

Gentle Cafe' Menbbers:
A heartfelt Thank-you!

Warmest Regards
Bill
Last edited by wsherman on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"In a logical world men would ride sidesaddle." The Late Paul Harvey

I.D.I.C. "Infinite Diversity Infinite Combination" Vulcan philosophy from Star Trek TOS
User avatar
Fred in Skirts
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 3989
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:48 pm
Location: Southeast Corner of Aiken County, SC USA

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Fred in Skirts »

I want to thank the Moderation team on this board for standing together and enforcing the rules and not trying to make new ones to cover what has become a most unenjoyable time on the skirts forum.
:Rulz:
I know just how much of a pain it is to be a moderator on a board that has gone up in flames. This board was headed that way fast. I am cuantly a Moderator on a board that is all about "Unmentionables"
:woops:
. :lol:
I also have some administration duties as well. It is a joy to moderate that board since Politics and Religion are not discussed at all. The membership know that it is against the rules and if they do so they will be moderated fast. In my time as a Moderator I have only had to get on someone once for a rules violation and it was taken in good style.

So Carl, Al and the rest of the mod staff thank you for your time and effort to make Skirt Cafe one of the best places to be to talk skirting.
:rock:
"It is better to be hated for what you are than be loved for what you are not" Andre Gide: 1869 - 1951
Always be yourself because the people that matter don’t mind and the ones that mind don’t matter.
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
Posts: 14433
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)
Contact:

Re: An Open Letter

Post by crfriend »

Fred in Skirts wrote:I know just how much of a pain it is to be a moderator on a board that has gone up in flames. This board was headed that way fast. I am cuantly a Moderator on a board that is all about "Unmentionables"
:woops:
. :lol:
Thanks for that, Fred. That scored a good laugh. (Believe it or not, all three of us on the moderation team (Mod Squad, anybody?) have remarkably advanced senses of humour and enjoy a good turn of phrase when well placed.) By the by, just because something's "unmentionable" here doesn't at all mean that it can't be in a place where the unmentionable is an everyday topic!
So Carl, Al and the rest of the mod staff thank you for your time and effort to make Skirt Cafe one of the best places to be to talk skirting.
:rock:
Grazie, Fred -- and many humble thanks to the folks who understand.

To reiterate on the reinstated rule -- it's not about the content, it's about the behaviour. I believe I can speak for Al and Milfmog in this regard when I say that we are entirely anti-censorship. We're also entirely anti-vandalism to the place here, so don't want any brawling, especially near the potted palm. If the combatants want to take it out to the public street, that's OK (our parking-lot, no).
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
Milfmog
Moderator
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire, UK

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Milfmog »

Bill,

I want to thank you publicly for your measured and eloquent opening post in this thread. You have expressed many thoughts that I have wanted to but have resisted to avoid the impression of either taking sides or undermining Carl's experiment.

I have been a far less frequent visitor in recent months as the quality of discourse, courtesy and the sheer enjoyability of the forum has sunk. In that time, I have rarely posted. Too many threads have been dragged down by off topic ranting and I simply could not be bothered to go through all the bile and bilge that was spouted in order to look for the good stuff. Nor to respond, even to the good stuff, wondering if someone would go out of their way to take offence.

As a mod, there have been a number of occasions when I have found my fingers poised over the keyboard ready to delete a post, put a user on moderated status or just vent. Carl's steadying hand has dissuaded me from doing that and folks here should not underestimate how much time and effort he puts into the forum, not just where you see it, but also "under the covers". We ALL owe Carl a debt of gratitude for that.

However, the experiment is over and the rules are now back in force. I have placed a metaphorical big stick next to my keyboard. I genuinely hope that I will not need it, but it is good to know that if it is required it will be to hand and its' deployment has been sanctioned. Keep your posts germane, polite and good humoured and the stick can just gather dust.

I look forward to a return to the normal high levels of discussion, humour and courtesy that have historically been a hallmark of this piece of cyberspace and I sincerely hope that we can get back to the way we all behaved twelve months ago.

Now let's all have fun,


Ian.
Do not argue with idiots; they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Cogito ergo sum - Descartes
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum - Ambrose Bierce
Grok
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2804
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 2:21 am

Re: An Open Letter

Post by Grok »

I recall an attempt on another web site/forum to have one specific thread for venting. The idea was that the nastiness would be confined to the one thread, allowing civil discourse on the other threads.

The web site had no regular moderator.

Didn't work. The nastiness continued to spill over into any and all other threads.
User avatar
r.m.anderson
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 2601
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:25 pm
Location: Burnsville MN USA

Re: An Open Letter

Post by r.m.anderson »

Yeah like too many complainers spoil a good well meaning discussion - - -
Well maybe not so good -
On the other hand let's admit it a lousy rotten down right underhanded dastardly
fiendish low down scum bag of a rascal intent on mayhem self-destruction and
insurrection.
Hummm maybe I am describing my own character - better stop while I an ahead !

On the other {other} hand maybe I would be better off fighting windmills !

You gotta realize what all this skirted rhetoric does to one's constitutional principles !
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
Post Reply