Russians

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Gregg1100
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Russians

Post by Gregg1100 »

As a complete outsider, I did wonder that as the Russians were supposed to have influenced the presidential election to a fair degree, then why hasn't someone said that the result was null and void and asked for a re-election ??
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Re: Russians

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Gregg1100 wrote:As a complete outsider, I did wonder that as the Russians were supposed to have influenced the presidential election to a fair degree, then why hasn't someone said that the result was null and void and asked for a re-election ??
At issue is that there's no concrete evidence -- or at least any credible evidence that has been produced publicly. So, with no "smoking gun" nobody is going to invalidate the "election". Of note is that there is no legal mechanism that I am aware of in the Constitution of the United States for (a) invalidating an election or (b) and procedures on what to do if one is found void.

If enough states invalidated an election such that there was no Electoral College requirement met it might cause problems, but other than recounts there is really little recourse to things spiralling out of control -- and protest votes count just as much as serious ones. Be careful what you wish for.

If the Russians were behind assorted "fake news" that contaminated the public's perception of things, then all I have to say on the matter is, "Shame on the US of A for having a stupid electorate." As Samuel Clemens, aka "Mark Twain", allegedly once cracked, "No-one has ever lost money betting on the stupidity of the electorate."

Interesting times indeed.
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Re: Russians

Post by oldsalt1 »

i really don't think that anything has happened in this election that hasn' t happened in all previous elections. Foreign governments both friend and foe have stuck their nose in our business to try to effect some outcome to be more beneficial to them. And I am sure that we have done the same. It is only the size and immediate response of social media and the internet in general ,that bring this interference to light.

To me the scary part of this entire thing is that it is almost impossible for the average everyday person to find out what the heck is going on.

We all have our tried and true trusted sources. but anyone who ventures out is engulfed in a rising sea of misinformation and pure lies.

I know he had his faults but I yearn for the trusted voice of a Walter Cronkite
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Re: Russians

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oldsalt1 wrote:To me the scary part of this entire thing is that it is almost impossible for the average everyday person to find out what the heck is going on.
Even in a sea of unknowns, it's possible to ferret fact from propaganda, but it takes an interest in doing so, diligence in one's methodology, and a willingness to read a whole load of misinformation before converging on something that even remotely resembles reality. That's hard work, and that's why it's not done all that often, and (at least in the USA) since critical thinking doesn't seem to be being taught any longer it's an increasingly unknown and alien skill.

Here's how it works. First and foremost, consider that anybody who has any publishing capability has an axe to grind -- and you don't necessarily know what that axe looks like. Essentially, take nothing you hear or read as gospel; what you experience first-hand, in the moment can be taken as such, but nothing else. Then reasonable analysis comes into play. Try "sorting" the data in some sort of order (and this is variable, but you need a wide range of opinions -- for that's what you're dealing with in "news"), toss the outliers at either end, and average the rest. If the mouth of your funnel is wide enough, you may actually get close to what happened. Rinse, lather, and repeat until the S/N ratio looks reasonable. That may take years.
We all have our tried and true trusted sources. but anyone who ventures out is engulfed in a rising sea of misinformation and pure lies.
True enough, but recall that one lie -- even a well-concealed one -- should be enough to destroy, utterly, that trust. And, by "lie" here I refer to anything that another party has paid for, or coerced, the source into transmitting.
I know he had his faults but I yearn for the trusted voice of a Walter Cronkite
Aka "The Walrus". I have fond memories of him from the Apollo moon-shot programme in the 1960s and (very) early '70s. But that was all easily verifiable from other sources, many from outside the USA.

It is such a shame that short-wave radio has become a morass of preachers; that used to be my prime source of verification on important matters.
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Re: Russians

Post by oldsalt1 »

I agree with crfriend if you are going to participate you have to investigate. I guess I am just longing for ? the good old days ? when you had to actually stand up go over to the TV adjust the antenna. and choose from one of the 5 or 6 channels available. It may seem simplistic but at least you had a reasonable belief that what you were hearing even if it was days old news was the truth.,
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Re: Russians

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Carl,

I'm a little older than you are and I don't remember anyone teaching me critical thinking per se. I taught in the 90's and everyone in education debated how best to teach critical thinking so I expect most teachers at least try. It's one of the keys to creativity and that's one area where US students stand head and shoulders over most of their peers internationally.

After running yours and oldsalt1's comments through my mental blender I have a couple thoughts I want to chum out there. 1) most people aren't used to having to hold the news up to scrutiny and 2) being a social animal, species homo sapiens tends to cluster around like-minded folks and listen to the sources that feed them the news that syncs with the beliefs of their tribe (Actually, I can't take credit for the last half of this 2nd thought.)

Consequently, it's not a lack of mental capacity or training that's tripping us up from getting to the factual foundations of issues, it's not wanting to break with our tribe. Hardest thing in the world for people who have one.

Damn! there IS an upside to Asperger's! Lacking a tribe because I have Asperger's, I have nothing to lose for having the independence of thought that's rooted in the Asperger's! On the other hand, no one listens. Or if they do they don't act on it. :wink:

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Re: Russians

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Pdxfashionpioneer wrote:I'm a little older than you are and I don't remember anyone teaching me critical thinking per se.
It was never formally codified in any school curriculum I ever encountered, but my parents, guardians, and family all made sure that I was capable of using my brain creatively and critically (and, if anything, I was the dense one in the crowd).
1) most people aren't used to having to hold the news up to scrutiny and 2) being a social animal, species homo sapiens tends to cluster around like-minded folks and listen to the sources that feed them the news that syncs with the beliefs of their tribe (Actually, I can't take credit for the last half of this 2nd thought.)
The first is a real problem, and folks need to start taking what they're being fed with a few grains (if not the entire brick) of salt. Bias is now pervasive in what's passed off as "news" -- to the point where much of it reads like propaganda. (Of note is that I detest left-leaning "news" outlets fully as much as I detest right-leaning "news" outlets. The sad part is that I have to put up with both in order to even have a chance at sorting things out.) I want to hear what happened, not your opinion of "why" it may have happened. I can form my own opinion based on the context of the event; if I lack facts or context I don't have that opportunity. This is one of the ways that people are enslaved.

As far as the second part goes, that's entirely natural, but at what point does not seeking things out become a conscious and wilful decision -- that's the tricky part. Having a critical and curious mind means that the thing is going to get used, and sometimes when that happens one occasionally generates "unpopular" viewpoints; the key here is how we, and those around us, behave. I enjoy vigorous discussion on matters, and disagreement offers the possibility of learning something new -- so long as it remains polite -- and if a stalemate ensues, there is always (or should) be the option of "agreeing to disagree". It seems that many folks don't recall that and just double-down on their own personal beliefs.

There is value in being able to at least grasp what's going through others' minds -- so long as they're not entirely mad, that is.
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Re: Russians

Post by dillon »

Gregg1100 wrote:As a complete outsider, I did wonder that as the Russians were supposed to have influenced the presidential election to a fair degree, then why hasn't someone said that the result was null and void and asked for a re-election ??
I concur with Carl in as much that Russian meddling did not hack our voting, but rather hacked the voters. Whether that had a decisive effect just can't be determined. Further there is no constitutional means for preventing an elected president from taking office. Once he or she takes office, the process becomes impeachment and removal from office. That would not happen sans a "smoking gun" showing substantial evidence that there was some collusive impropriety. And in this political climate, and with single-party rule, even if such evidence was revealed, it seems unlikely that Congress would act when the majority party is rabidly close to absolute rule beyond the reach of any challenge.
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Re: Russians

Post by Gregg1100 »

I did say SUPPOSED. Just what it seemed. A loose cannon.
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Re: Russians

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Gregg1100 wrote:I did say SUPPOSED. Just what it seemed. A loose cannon.
Well, The Donald certainly isn't the first "loose cannon" on the field of play. There is plenty of precedent.

For those of you "outside looking in", feel good. Those of us "inside" are going to bear the brunt of this. What was being pointed up is that there is no Constitutionally legal way to change what has happened (not that the place has been operating in a Constitutional manner for the past 16 years).

I would love to bring Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, and some of the other luminaries forward (?) into modern times simply to see if they'd recognise the place. Sadly, they are unavailable (although likely spinning in their graves).
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Re: Russians

Post by Darryl »

True or not, I like the meme going about that the Russians influenced the election by helping the Democrats fulfill a long-standing promise: that of becoming more transparent.

With me, Hillary blew it long ago with her Benghazi comment "What difference does it make/"

I've some familiarity with security clearances and handling of classified material, and friends with much more experience and knowledge who dryly wondered why she hadn't been disappeared yet. That argument that taking her down would also take Obama down was simply most excellent collateral damage, if true.

Both sides have been using disinformation for years and years, or at least "spin" so as to restate something so that it could be perceived as something good, rather than evil.

If we could get real newsmen like Edward R. Murrow, maybe even Chet Huntley and David Brinkley but no one else after the mid-60's. A friend had to retire, for health reasons, after a 20-year career as an editor in a news organization, and holds the opinion that everything called 'news' today is merely opinion or editorializing.
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Re: Russians

Post by dillon »

The US cannot be regarded as an actual "democracy" until the electoral college is adjusted to do what Alexander Hamilton intended...to protect against foreign domination of the US elections. I believe in the electoral college...it is the last line of defense for our democracy against an easily swayed electorate. But it must be representative of population, and it obviously isn't. Lets compare Texas, a conservative state, with Vermont, a relatively liberal state. Texas has 15,100,000 registered voters and 38 electoral votes; Vermont has 465,000 registered voters and 3 electoral votes. That means that we allow 155,000 voters per electoral vote in VT, but require nearly 398,000 voters per electoral vote in TX. So each vote in VT counts as 2.5 votes in TX? How does that equate to "one man, one vote"? The system is archaic and unbalanced, and should be reformed or scrapped entirely. Trump was actually correct when he said that "the system is rigged". It was perhaps the only truth he spoke during his campaign.

I support the EC, but it, like the House of Representatives, needs to reflect population. And it needs strict rules on its composition...especially the exclusion of politicians in civilian clothing. And it must be strictly governed under a code of ethics, and not empowered to a state's political "winners." I think the EC should be apportioned on the same basis as the US House, and both should have fair and uniform rules for partitioning. And I have previously posted my views on the drawing of House districts. Sorry if you folks in tiny states feel disempowered, but you might, perhaps, try asking yourselves why you have no population, and then ponder why you think you deserve greater than a 1:1 voice per voter. I cannot see us as, a nation, existing much longer under unequal electoral representation, or under partisan gerrymandered representation. It was not fair when Democrats did it, as often screamed by the GOP, nor is it fair when even more scientific methodology is employed by the GOP. If we are truly patriots, this is the first thing we must change. Let the light of our founding fathers finally shine...
Last edited by dillon on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russians

Post by oldsalt1 »

For those of you "outside looking in", feel good. Those of us "inside" are going to bear the brunt of this. What was being pointed up is that there is no Constitutionally legal way to change what has happened (not that the place has been operating in a Constitutional manner for the past 16 years).
Here we go again
For those on the outside looking in there are those of us on the inside who feel that we have been bearing the brunt for the last eight years,. And that things can only get better. If the republicans acted this way when Obama won we would have been crucified. For the sake of the country stop whining and give the man a chance.
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Re: Russians

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As it stands, I have no choice but to "give the man a chance." But if he governs as he campaigned, it will be the demise of American democracy. I would only ask why Republicans were not equally enthusiastic to give Obama "a chance" as you now beg me? Instead you pronounced that your prime objective was to make sure he was a "one-term President," i.e., to actively precipitate his failure. Luckily for America, you failed to accomplish your goals. Let's see if Trump is stupid enough to roll back progress.
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Re: Russians

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dillon wrote:As it stands, I have no choice but to "give the man a chance." But if he governs as he campaigned, it will be the demise of American democracy. I would only ask why Republicans were not equally enthusiastic to give Obama "a chance" as you now beg me? Instead you pronounced that your prime objective was to make sure he was a "one-term President," i.e., to actively precipitate his failure. Luckily for America, you failed to accomplish your goals. Let's see if Trump is stupid enough to roll back progress.

WHAT PROGRESS ??????????
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