Trump vs Clinton vs The Rest

[Disaffected.citizen]

Although this thread is going the way of most others, o/t, it's an interesting diversion.

I'm glad to have read the "promises" of some of the presidential candidates; we'll see how those are converted into policy. My thanks to all who have contributed.

As regards healthcare around the world, it is imperfect wherever you go. The UK system has some serious faults, no doubt, but it isn't nearly as broken as the press touts to whip up the masses. What could be done better? It's difficult to say because of variations nationwide, but:

• a focus on preventative medicine in primary care would likely yield a better return, except that individuals en-masse would have to change lazy habits;
  
  treatment of emergency cases is probably about right; A&E triage probably hits at about the right level, although waiting room times can be very frustrating when it's busy;
  
  genuine illnesses are also treated with about the right level of urgency.

Of course, your experience likely differs from mine. I suspect hospitals in large metropolitan areas face different demands from my (friends' and family's) needs. Where things seem to go awry is with "value" based treatments, such as non-elective cosmetic surgery and fertility treatments. Where do you draw the line?

Having some (limited) experience of the healthcare systems in other parts of Europe, I have been impressed; but I don't know if that experience differs for the "locals".

[stevelous]

We used to have a large general hospital in our town that served the needs of a large area in mid hertfordshire. Now this has been closed and is being demolished to make way for more expensive private housing that will be out of the reach of 95% of local people.

We now have to go 15 miles along a busy 2 lane motorway to get to the nearest Accident and Emergency department. All ambulance trips are now 'blues and twos'. During the rush hour ambulances get stuck in traffic. No one will admit the number of deaths this has caused.

We now have a glorified polyclinic with a walk in centre that can just about put a plaster on a minor cut and at the A&E in the other hospital a 6 hour wait to see a doctor.

The government of Thatcher/Major put unelected individuals in charge of NHS Trusts over paid and uncaring persons. They closed our hospital because the land it stands on was worth more than the land under the other hospital! Who benefits only the trust members (small brown envelopes) not the patients or staff.

The current tory government is allowing this to happen over the demands of local people.

[dillon]

No insurance program will be ever affordable until we take measures to control medical costs; the sickest will continue to set the costs for everyone else and drive up premuims, especially in states which refuse to expand Medicaid coverage; even in the states who act responsibly, someone has to foot the state's share of the larger Medicaid bill. Cost control is essential, but at the pace (and cost) of technology, do we dare do so? The situation begs for a "public option." But for the government to say "This is all you can get paid for a course of care" might inhibit life-saving advances in medicine. It is not an easy problem to solve, but I do see the course of things leading to more centralization, even though this may not be the best option, without some concessions from "big medicine" and "big pharma."

Reform needs to start with the concept that a new doctor will enter the profession without the expectation of becoming very wealthy from his/her practice, and that he/she also should not enter the field encumbered with student debt. And given those strictures, we should probably do what we can to flood the market with physicians, nurses, and technicians. And reform needs to include the requirement that the pharmaceuticals industry will focus on life-saving drugs, and not on ever more meds for acid reflux and toenail fungus.

[john62]

Reform must first start with HEALTH CARE, all our systems are about disease care, that is where the money is made. We must educate the general public and the system about what it is to be healthy eg about diet, exercise, sleep, the effects of excessive stress etc.

John

[crfriend]

No insurance program will be ever affordable until we take measures to control medical costs [...]

This is already happening. The "insurance" industry is severely ratcheting down what is being paid to providers and not passing those savings back to consumers; this has been going on for decades. It's all about profit and nothing to do with care.

Another problem is that deploying resources to find cures to certain widespread ailments is not being done because treatment is vastly more profitable than fixing the problem. With treatment one has a captive audience for life; with a cure, it's a one-off grab. Imagine the boon if we could cure diabetes; then contemplate the financial losses to big pharma and the "insurance" industry that would bring.

Reform needs to start with the concept that a new doctor will enter the profession without the expectation of becoming very wealthy from his/her practice, and that he/she also should not enter the field encumbered with student debt.

I would also add that the notion of malpractice be largely reformed, and the entire added "insurance" load that adds to the system. Merely stripping incompetent doctors of their licenses would be enough for virtually anything save the most egregious of situations. The practise of medicine today, unless one gets very, very, lucky is not something that one gets rich off. One starts the game with tens, if not hundreds, of thousand dollars in debt -- debt that cannot be gotten rid of via bankruptcy -- an ever diminishing stream of income (thanks to the "insurance" industry's payout plan), and ever rising costs. I think the only reason that people still go into the field is the éclat that the field traditionally had. Note how many foreign doctors there are now in the US.

If private industry, be it big pharma or the "insurance" industry, isn't going to step up to find cures and properly look after things, then it needs to be down to society -- and, yes, that means public intervention for care and research/development that won't then be sold off to private interests.

[beachlion]

I'm originally from Holland and for month I'm shaking my head in unbelief and disgust. The most violent thing I saw in Holland was moustaches put on posters with a marker. Negative ads about the opponents are unetical thus not allowed in newspapers or on TV.

[Disaffected.citizen]

Well, I'm bumping this post up because I asked what each of the candidates stood for. This was an opportunity for some meaningful explanations; sadly few were proffered.

I have serious misgivings about president elect Trump, based upon his campaign tactics, general personality, and business ethics. Having said that, I had also undertaken some independent research, although the source material may not be entirely accurate.

Trump made a previous foray into the political forum in 2000 with a cursory look at the presidency. At that time he was aligned to The Reform Party, but seems to have disassociated himself from it because of some of the other "members" - I believe he referred to two of them as "a Klansman" and a "neo-nazi". It also appears he had no problem with "gay" servicemen and women - as long as they can do the job.

In the "between years", he provided funding for Hillary and some of her campaigns; he supported the Democrats.

Now he's moved to the Republican platform. I suspect he's been carefully planning his route and weighed up the odds early in the "races".

Accordingly, I think he is a determined and opportunistic individual. He has never been financially bankrupt - personally, although several of his businesses have filed for protection under chapter 11. Morally, may be a different matter.

So now we are getting a little information about what he intends doing. Reducing corporation taxes - might be good, but not at such a drastic rate if he wants to afford his infrastructure projects. Then again, he's not averse to borrowing and not paying, so there may well be an increasing budget deficit; at what cost?

Healthcare; if you're poor, don't get ill.

Will he deliver on everything his "supporters" expect? I'm not certain he will. He has two terms at a maximum and, as a businessman, sees resources as expendable. He'll likely do enough over his first term to hoodwink the electorate that he's putting right what the other guy got wrong, but by the end of it all, it will be what he wants regardless of what voters expected or anticipated.

As far as the world stage is concerned, this is a real unknown. Frankly, OldSalt, you have more to worry about from the "middle eastern states" destabilised by "western" intervention (and I don't just mean the US; I include the UK under Tony Bliar) over the past 15 years, than from Iran. Yes, they invaded US sovereign territory in 1979/80; there has been slow change. Where they have a "hard liner" opposite your "hard liner" really means you'll be bumping heads.

Negotiating is "giving a little" and "taking a little", not presenting a list of demands. Following the thawing of the "cold war", it seems the US moved from being relatively non-interventionist, to thinking they are some form of world police under George H W Bush and it continued so. Your way is not necessarily right for everyone; either globally or internally. Neither is ours. Barack Obama is a world class leader and statesman; George W wasn't, Bill did OK. We'll see about Donald. The UK has had its share of leaders and statesmen, and also its "lemons".

All the above said, we'll only know what Trump is like after his first 100 days, his first year and his first term. He now has the chance to show his mettle.

[Jim]

This post expresses my feelings well:
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/her ... ieve+Today
An excerpt:

This has never been about politics.
This is not about one candidate over the other.
It’s not about one’s ideas over another’s.
It is not blue vs. red.
It’s not her emails vs. his bad language.
It’s not her dishonesty vs. his indecency.

It’s about overt racism and hostility toward minorities.
It’s about religion being weaponized.
It’s about crassness and vulgarity and disregard for women.
It’s about a barricaded, militarized, bully nation.
It’s about an unapologetic, open-faced ugliness.

And it is not only that these things have been ratified by our nation that grieve us; all this hatred, fear, racism, bigotry, and intolerance—it’s knowing that these things have been amen-ed by our neighbors, our families, our friends, those we work with and worship alongside. That is the most horrific thing of all. We now know how close this.

It feels like living in enemy territory being here now, and there’s no way around that. We wake up today in a home we no longer recognize. We are grieving the loss of a place we used to love but no longer do. This may be America today but it is not the America we believe in or recognize or want.

[dillon]

Well, in the words of Dick Tuck "The people have spoken, the bastards..."

I woke up Wednesday morning feeling as if i was on the island of "Lord of the Flies" and the character Roger was now in charge, but his hair stylist was Ronald McDonald...

But things could be worse... We could be faced with:

scream__1__400x400.jpg

I suppose the Republic will survive in some form, though perhaps not the democracy we are accustomed to, what with looming one-party rule upon us, and an unstable, inexperienced, all-or-nothing narcissist about to take over. It will be interesting to watch, however, what evolution will happen in Washington. Will the Party break into even more deeply warring factions?

First observation, the way Paul Ryan was effusively kissing Trump's butt yesterday, I'd say he may be a "short-timer" as Speaker; Trump doesn't forgive or forget enemies. If Ryan is deposed, I predict more rancor inside the GOP.

Second observation, when Trump realizes that his own GOP Congress won't give him his way everytime, how will he internally rationalize defeats? Is he capable of doing so? Or will he end up taking his toys and going home in a huff?

Third observation, how will the supporters rationalize his inability to accomplish the things he claims (like the Great Wall Of Trump, for example), or when he realizes Congress wont let him scrap NAFTA/CAFTA, or when he figures out that he has no chance of getting our Allies to reimpose sanctions on Iran, or when Congress decides we cant afford an additional ten trillion dollars in debt to make Trump's tax cuts happen? Will they turn on him with the same vehemence they showed Hillary? Or will they just rationalize it the way Trump does?

For my part, I will reciprocate conciliation. I plan to give Donald Trump the same benefit of doubt and the same cooperative spirit that the GOP offered Barak Obama, after he was elected. Fair is fair, after all, isn't it?

[moonshadow]

This post expresses my feelings well:
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2016/11/09/her ... ieve+Today

I read the article and I'd say that that's the overall feeling I have gotten from this whole thing. For me, it's not so much Trump. He's just one man, and what his intentions are, his policies, etc are not the basis of my disappointment. He may be a good enough president, but that's not the point, the point is that he has exposed just how ugly such a large segment of our population is.

As I said in another thread, it's not Trump so much as it's his worshipers. You see, Trump may well indeed be a moderate, and the most middle leaning republican that's served in the white house for a long time, if ever, but it doesn't matter. What got him elected was hate. Trump supporters were so desperate to bring this country back to a state of hate that throughout Trumps campaign it was pretty much proven that there was nothing he couldn't say, and the people would just eat it up!

It saddens me that the country I love has been embroiled in so much hate. If the spirit of Jesus does indeed exist, I'm sure he weeps this week.

What's even sadder is that if Trump doesn't follow through on his promise to "hate", then he might not win a second term!

You see, it doesn't matter who our president is, this is what I see when I think of America now:
(I blanked out the F bomb so I don't get in trouble again )

fyd.jpg

America may be a "Christian" nation, but it is not a Christ like nation!

[r.m.anderson]

Well the Republicans and Trump have 4 years to accomplish something.
AND if not then the fool me once voters can throw the rascals out and not make the same mistake that is unless the Republicans stack the rigged system - Humm !

I would guess at that point in time that a new Revolutionary War would have to be engaged to Take back Making America Great AGAIN !
You don't think that Donald would nuke his own American citizens - Time will tell !

[dillon]

I do find it to be one, and perhaps the only, positive aspect of a Trump presidency...the fact that he is NOT especially beholden to the pseudo-moral Evangelicals, since he never really pretended to be one of them. Sure, he claimed to champion religious freedom, but he was never all "fire and brimstone" about it, so I suspect that his words were just empty platitudes...little more than a tip of the hat to an issue he sees as irrelevant. He could use that political distance as a bargaining chip for building a base of support, or use it as license to liberate the GOP from the ball-and-chain shackle of Christian Conservatism. If he does the latter, I think he may, albeit accidentally, do the country a favor by creating a new GOP as a vast, centrist, commonsense secular party that would dominate politics from now on. But unless they move closer to the center, however, they will never become that. The opportunity is now the GOP's to seize of squander. Americans like to make money and they like their personal liberties. The ultimate winning combination for the Republicans would be to show themselves truly conservative both in keeping government from becoming an unreasonable impediment to the economy, i.e. limiting taxation and regulation, and, moreover, keeping big government fundamentally out of our private lives, i.e. out of women's uteri and out of people's bedrooms. That would be the legitimately conservative position for a party that, thus far, has only pretended to be philosophically conservative.

And I still look at things through the lens of Star Wars, being of that generation. As Republicans go, the dour, sanctimonious Cruz is definitely the Evil Emperor while Trump is Jabba the Hutt. Ryan is Darth Vader, and as I said once before, Rubio is an ewok. Kasich, Bush, and the rest of the crowd were just hapless storm troopers who crashed their speeder bikes into trees.

[dillon]

Well the Republicans and Trump have 4 years to accomplish something.
AND if not then the fool me once voters can throw the rascals out and not make the same mistake that is unless the Republicans stack the rigged system - Humm !

I would guess at that point in time that a new Revolutionary War would have to be engaged to Take back Making America Great AGAIN !
You don't think that Donald would nuke his own American citizens - Time will tell !

Let's face it RM...Trumps hidden slogan that won him the election was "Let's Make America WHITE Again"...

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Moonshadow:
Like it or not Donald Trump IS responsible for the divisiveness, hatred, racism, misogyny, and gay-bashing that has emerged over the past year because he used that rhetoric, which, as a Presidential candidate, normalized and legitimized such feelings and acting on those feelings. As far as I am concerned the rise of Donald Trump as a political figure demonstrated how poorly BOTH parties have addressed the problems and legitimate concerns of white, working-class Americans.

However, that neglect in no way excuses the racism, etc. we're seeing. Nor will those people's lives be advanced by acting on those impulses.

Sure that undercurrent was there and flowing before Trump threw his hat into the ring, but he is the one who tapped into that ugliness and legitimized it. He said he wants to reunite the country, for sure that's a necessary first step to making us a greater country than it already is, but he exacerbated those divisions and has created a hell of a mess. I have no idea how he's going to effect that reunification and bind the wounds he inflicted. My sincere best wishes to him in drawing us back together.

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

"Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country."

The picture I have drawn of Portland, I expect, is a beautiful place populated by beautiful, accepting, tolerant people. I also expect that you've seen in the news that things have not been so beautiful here the last couple of nights, tonight most of all.

I also heard about the other side of that coin this evening. A good friend of mine, Dawn, told those of us at church choir rehearsal how the morning after the election a pair of married lesbians she knows woke up to find a note pinned to their door threatening them because they are lesbians with a signature of "Trump." Clearly, that note was not commissioned, let along posted, by the President-elect, but it goes to show that whoever wrote it feels Trump legitimized his gay-bashing. Dawn went on to tell us that sometime since, she was in a meeting where one member of the group told her to her face that, "We're now going to push people like you back into the closet!"

Tuesday night when the election returns made it clear to me that Trump was going to be our next President I had the clear thought that, "Maybe this is the time to dial my wardrobe (skirting) back!" When I woke up Wednesday morning I thought, "What was I thinking last night, nothing has really changed," so there was no objective reason to change my behavior. Dawn's report reactivated the dormant '60's activist in me. I texted her to ask her to tell me about any rallies, demonstrations, etc. for LGBT rights because as far as I was concerned I was one (a T) and I am going to stand up for myself.

I urge all of you to do likewise. DO NOT go back undercover; step out more often and more boldly than ever. The answer to the narrow-minded bigotry that Donald Trump has encouraged with his rallies and tweets and rhetoric is to proudly show our countrymen just how much diversity is in our communities all over the country and around the world (I don't want to leave out our international brothers.). Never forget, at heart, all bullies are cowards, starting with our recently-elected Bully-in-Chief. All we have to do is stand up to them and we will get our country back!

The Tea Partiers and "militia" members like to brandish the Revolutionary War banner that reads "Don't Tread On Me." If you know any of those types you can tell them for me, I have never had any intention of doing so. But they had better not think about treading on me either because he who tramples last, tramples best. And 3" high heels hurt a helluva lot worse than their jack boots!