Suggestions Regarding Transgender Rights

[Caultron]

While I personally feel that a unisex or "family" restroom is a fair enough compromise, be advised that some in the trans community find that answer discriminatory. Understand that those particular people, and we'll just use a trans-woman for example, believe that she (the trans-woman) should have every right to use the regular woman's room as she considers herself a bona fide woman...

I think I've said this before, but if a man gets sex-reassignment surgery, appears to all onlookers as female, and gets his legal sex (i.e. on his driver's license) changed to female, then he (now she) ought to use the women's room.

A guy with no interest at all in conducting as a female himself or transforming himself into one ought to use the men's room.

Everything else is a gray area.

The mentally-female guy has his rights, but so do the mentally-female women. And so there's no pat answer.

[moonshadow]

I think I've said this before, but if a man gets sex-reassignment surgery, appears to all onlookers as female, and gets his legal sex (i.e. on his driver's license) changed to female, then he (now she) ought to use the women's room.

A guy with no interest at all in conducting as a female himself or transforming himself into one ought to use the men's room.

Again, it doesn't matter to me what room anyone uses. I think the whole debate is pretty dumb, and all boils down to puritan control.

What people ought to do is be kind to one another.

nuff said...

[r.m.anderson]

The NC Legislature is finding how good it is to make laws shooting themselves in the foot at the same time.
NCAA athletics and NASCAR auto racing pulling the plug on activities costing NC citizens millions of dollars
in revenue and trade.
So everyone at one time or another needs to "GO" - I guess this is telling the NC Legislature and Governor
where they need to "GO" !

[Tor]

A guy with no interest at all in conducting as a female himself or transforming himself into one ought to use the men's room.

Everything else is a gray area.

The mentally-female guy has his rights, but so do the mentally-female women. And so there's no pat answer.

^This. The bolded part gets forgotten by too many (or is it all?) of the shrill voices, and it seems all to many of the less shrill ones too.

I believe I've said the same thing in different words here, surely along with others I've forgotten just now.

I believe the NC law is in large part the backlash launched by the people mad about the shrill folk ignoring the bolded part in Caultron's version. If perhaps not the promulgators of it, certainly a great deal of the support for it.

[moonshadow]

A friend and I were discussing this some time ago, and we were trying to remember what got this whole thing started. We both agreed that what needs to happen is to return to the way things were before, when "common sense" ruled who used what bathroom. In other words, if you look like you belong in the women's, then use that one, if you look like you belong in the men's, use the men's. It didn't matter what was between your legs. If you were a passable trans-woman, you'd use the women's room and vice versa.

But what happened was when homosexual marriage was legalized back in 2015, the conservative puritans went on a war path. They tried the usual onslaught of "religious freedom" bills, they had their day with Kim Davis, and all made them look like a bunch of asses. (and they are) Losing national support, they decided to strike TG people as they knew that it's a sensitive issue, and a difficult issue to draw a line on. They used the good old fashioned American card of victimizing children "what about our children?! what about our children?!". It stirred emotions and conflicted people who even were more moderate than conservative.

The sad part is that many transgender people aren't even homosexual, they are simply caught up on a war on gay marriage. And God is shaking her head in disgust, not at what otherwise harmless transgender people are trying to achieve, but at the level of hate that has swept the land of the free. It has reached a point to where I haven't subscribed to the newspaper in over six months, have been off facebook for over a month now, never even bother to look up any news articles online, and while in this room in Chattanooga, 20 out of the 50 cable channels are nothing but news, and I found myself with the weather channel playing in the background while I was watchin you tube videos of a man crushing things with a hydroponic press.

In other words, I hate to even read the news any more. I'm utterly uninterested, and have reached the point where I could care less what's going on, and aside from my little rant here, I do feel somewhat better for it. It has helped me be more at ease when wearing my skirts out in public. I'm no longer worried about what is going through others heads, because the fact is, I'm pretty much clueless as to what's going on in current events now.

On our way back from South Carolina a few weeks ago, I stopped at the rest station in Virginia on the Tennessee border. I was in my Target dress. As I dried my hands by the door, a man started to walk in, then backed up, I assume to check to make sure he was walking in the right restroom. Upon realizing he was in the correct one, he re-entered and as he walked by shook his head is disgust.

Well...? What the hell do they expect? Though I'm not a trans-woman, I'm sure he thought I was. And on that notion, those anal puritans don't want trans-women using the women's restroom. He was disgusted by the fact that I was using the men's restroom...well what does he want from us (me)? Just to hold it??? To hell with him!

[crfriend]

[...] in Chattanooga, 20 out of the 50 cable channels are nothing but news [...]

Be careful with what you consider to be "news" -- much, if not most, of what's available now is thinly-veiled editorialising from one extreme viewpoint or another. Actually ferreting out what's really going on is more of a chore than ever as one must wade through so much muck and grime to gain anything like an unbiased viewpoint. Much of the current rancour that's playing out on the national stage is really the product of the sorts of "news" that folks listen to -- and believe.

Whatever happened to a healthy scepticism in people? Just because some shrieking head (one can't really call them "talking heads" any more) wails the same lie over and over does not make the lie truth. Note that both "sides" are guilty of this -- and both should be equally ashamed. However, shame, it seems, no longer exists in the 21st Century USA -- and that's a profound loss.

On our way back from South Carolina a few weeks ago, I stopped at the rest station in Virginia on the Tennessee border. I was in my Target dress. As I dried my hands by the door, a man started to walk in, then backed up, I assume to check to make sure he was walking in the right restroom. Upon realizing he was in the correct one, he re-entered and as he walked by shook his head is disgust.

That's his problem, not yours unless he tries to project it onto you by attempting violence. Other than that, ignore that sort of behaviour.

[pelmut]

...The sad part is that many transgender people aren't even homosexual,

The terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" lose their meaning where transgender people are concerned. You can get the stupid situation where people try to make out that a pre-op relationship is heterosexual and a post-op one is homosexual (or vice-versa) when neither partner has changed their sexual orientation and they are still in love with the same person.

On our way back from South Carolina a few weeks ago, I stopped at the rest station in Virginia on the Tennessee border. I was in my Target dress. As I dried my hands by the door, a man started to walk in, then backed up, I assume to check to make sure he was walking in the right restroom. Upon realizing he was in the correct one, he re-entered and as he walked by shook his head is disgust.

That used to happen to me quite often - although I interpreted the head shake as "whatever next!", rather than disgust; very often a smile disarms the situation. It seems to have occurred less often in the last year or two, so perhaps men in the UK are becoming less easily confused or more open minded.

[Caultron]

...That used to happen to me quite often - although I interpreted the head shake as "whatever next!", rather than disgust; very often a smile disarms the situation.

It definitely helps to be confident, friendly, and cheerful.[/quote]

Cowering and inwardness are more likely to make you seem creepy.

It seems to have occurred less often in the last year or two, so perhaps men in the UK are becoming less easily confused or more open minded.

Or perhaps your confidence, friendliness, and cheerfulness have improved.

[Ralph]

Again, it doesn't matter to me what room anyone uses. I think the whole debate is pretty dumb, and all boils down to puritan control.

What people ought to do is be kind to one another.

Well, I agree with that last comment but what it "all boils down to" is not so easy to determine unless you have psychic abilities that exceed my own.

In a perfect world, people of whatever flavour would go in, do their business, and leave (well, hopefully wash up afterwards). And in 999 trillion, 999 billion, 999 thousand, 998 times out of a quadrillion that's exactly what happens. But all it takes is one tragic incident by a dangerous predator to spoil it for everyone. There have been two such incidents over the past few years that I know of; there may or may not be others but these two examples will suffice to illustrate my point:

• A few years back a man in a dress -- making little or no effort to pass as a woman -- entered a women-only restroom and assaulted a (presumably genuine) woman in there.
• Earlier this year, a man in a dress went into a "gender neutral" dressing room at a department store and used his camera phone raised over the wall to take pictures of the young lady in the next stall over.

Now, if you step back and look at those events objectively, it's clear that who is allowed in which restroom is not relevant and neither laws allowing nor forbidding a bloke in a frock from entering those places would have changed the outcome. But when the subject is sexual predators and vulnerable young women... objectivity isn't so easy.

As one such bloke in a frock, I'm sympathetic to the cause and, like you, I don't really care who shares the privy with me as long as we're all being polite and minding our own business. But as a father of one such vulnerable young lady... I can also understand the fear parents have of something like those two attacks happening to their precious wee ones. Sure, you can say "What kind of monster parent would allow their five year old to go into a public restroom by him or herself?" But that protective fear doesn't go away when the child is 8, or 10, or 15 (if anything, I was considerably MORE distrustful of men, regardless of what they were wearing, when my daughter was 15).

So for me, the two uncontestable requirements are privacy and safety. I want my daughter (as well as my son, my wife, and myself) to be able to enter a bathroom or changing room or shower room at the public pool and take care of their needs without any risk of exposure to someone who is perhaps not being kind to one another as we ought.

I see in another reply you mocked this protective concern with your "what about the children" response. How can you be so sure this is not each parents' genuine concern? Why do you feel it is not valid for a parent to have such fears?

Yes, politicians play on that fear; yes, people whose motive is purely to suppress (or better, eliminate) anyone who is not straight, white, cisgender, all-American etc. play on that fear. But as the alarming number of Amber Alerts testifies, it's not irrational for a parent to fear anyone who might possibly be any kind of a predator. It's the same fear that makes us check a motionless sleeping child to make sure he or she is still breathing, or start to panic if the child is 3 minutes late coming home from school. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt with matching maxi skirt.

So don't blame alarmist politicians or bigots for the reluctance to just let anyone in any bathroom. Blame the genuine perverts who ruined it for everyone.

[moonshadow]

But all it takes is one tragic incident by a dangerous predator to spoil it for everyone.

And this is a direction of law making that I do not support...

It reminds me of being back in school, having a couple of rowdy kids that can't keep their mouth shut and suddenly the whole class has silent lunch.

We are a society that is increasingly punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. The conservatives are all about punishing all transgender people for the actions of a few, yet when it comes to taking their guns for the actions of a solitary shooter they are all up in arms (pun intended). To use another example, the banning of sugary sodas is often criticized by conservative groups, but why? Because more and more people can't control themselves. Which is why I stand by my remark about what it all "boils down" to. This is a matter of pro right puritan conservative politics, and they are playing whatever card they can to advance their agenda, and sleep comfortably at night knowing everyone is white, protestant, and that the world is still flat. Which brings me to "what about the children?"

Okay, what I'm about to say I'm certain is going to get me in trouble, possibly flared, and will be wildly unpopular, but it's my take on it, and seems to be supported by the actual behavior of the human species....

Nobody gives a crap about children. If they did, then we wouldn't be loosing so many to starvation, disease, etc. Everyone cares about their children, but generally nobody else's. I watched a social experiment once where a well dressed child was panhandling for money and generally had the community eating out of her hand. Then they staged a poor homeless looking child (both were girls) to do the same thing, and basically the experiment had to be called off because the community was being so mean to her, shooing her away, yelling obscenities, etc. Most people who do do good deeds only do it for the publicity and to be hailed a hero. Lets be realistic, if it weren't for ego stroking, we'd all be cold to one another... children included. Am I being cynical? Probably, but I just see the human race as the bunch of self serving savages that we are. You let the bottom fall out of modern society, I'm talking total anarchy world wide, an Apocalypse of biblical proportion, and you'll see grown adults from all walks of life from the riff raff to the preachers stealing food from children, raping and pillaging as they go along.

As a further indication of the lack of caring for actual children and how it's simply a card being played by conservatives, I present the fact that nobody seems to care about little boys peeing along side of passable transgender women. It is argued that dad can enter the room and stand guard, however what if dad isn't available? What if he's shopping with mom today? Further, if all bathrooms were unisex then mom and/or dad could accompany any child of any sex to the restroom to make sure things stay civil.

It all just makes just too much sense to ignore. And so again, I submit that this is just puritan politics trying to control everyone.

But if we start making frivolous regulations based on what someone "might" do, then we need to stop issuing drivers licenses (how many die in car crashes?). We need to enforce strict diets, control what everyone eats (how many die from obesity?) We need to ban ALL GUNS (not that I support that, but you can't have it both ways, and that's all I'm saying), ban anything that may be used as a weapon. Basically, when we're born, we all need to be placed immediately into padded prison cells for life so there is ZERO chance of us harming anyone.

Extreme? Of course! But it's a slippery slope. When we start penalizing the general populace based on what "someone might do", then where do we draw the line?

And so... we enact laws rooted in fear. And that's NO way to run a free society.

[moonshadow]

" An it harm none, do what ye will"

That's the rule I live by, the basis of all of my political, social and religious philosophy comes down to that.

[crfriend]

But when the subject is sexual predators and vulnerable young women... objectivity isn't so easy.

Be careful with this notion. Be very careful indeed. Contemplate a few things here before continuing: How many "sexual predators" have you met on the street? How "vulnerable" are women really? Hard facts are difficult to come by, and are carefully manipulated by those with an axe to grind. Hype is very, very cheap, and pathetically easy to stir up.

I see in another reply you mocked this protective concern with your "what about the children" response. How can you be so sure this is not each parents' genuine concern? Why do you feel it is not valid for a parent to have such fears?

The "What about our chillun!" argument has been brought to the fore so many times -- and sometimes for entirely nefarious reasons -- as to be ludicrous in practise. Any parent's first responsibility is to teach their offspring basic survival tactics; if they fail in that then let evolution take its natural course.

But as the alarming number of Amber Alerts testifies, it's not irrational for a parent to fear anyone who might possibly be any kind of a predator.

What's the percentage of "Amber alerts" that involve familiars, and what's the percentage of falsified "alerts" banged in to 911 to gain leverage in something else? I'm sure it's vastly higher than gets reported in the mainstream media. Random interpersonal violence between strangers is terrifying precisely because it's so rare. Fear, sadly, is what keeps most media outlets afloat and what allows the government to routinely abridge basic personal liberties of entirely innocent individuals.

It's the same fear that makes us check a motionless sleeping child to make sure he or she is still breathing

Nope. Don't go there. Stand off and call the Authorities -- else the Authorities will get called on you for "inappropriate contact". This is a sad fact that men now have to deal with in the modern US of A; if we behave like humans we're likely to get carted off like animals.

Blame the genuine perverts who ruined it for everyone.

Is the density actually -- in reality -- high enough to be overly concerned with? (Once the hype is discounted, mind.) I suspect not, unless one lives in a truly depraved part of the world, and even those tend to be self-policing.

[hoborob]

Well Moon it really and truly does "boil down" to one inexorable point. That point being control. The powerful want to be able to control everyone else so that they get all the benefits and luxuries while denying them to everyone else. It really and truly is a power thing, they want the power to tell you, me and everyone else what they can and cannot do while reserving the freedom to for themselves to do whatever they wish. This we have the idea of aristocracy where those born into certain families enjoy the benefits of the power and money that they have access to while a child born into a family that is barely scratching by get told to go to work so that the powerful child can go to the beach in a foreign country.

That is the way it has been throughout history and the only disruptions to that have been when the oppressed have reached to point where they had nothing else to lose and this rose up and fought back against tyranny and successfully shoved it back into the darkness until it finally emerged again and very subtly worked its way back to the top, only to finally get beaten back again. Truly an example of the saying that "those who refuse to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." It will and be only once we have truly learned those lessons that we will all be able to live how we wish with no fear of others. I know its a dream that we will likely not see in our lifetimes but one can still dream even while being beaten down.

[moonshadow]

Well Moon it really and truly does "boil down" to one inexorable point. That point being control. The powerful want to be able to control everyone else so that they get all the benefits and luxuries while denying them to everyone else.

NAILED IT right there!

And THAT is why I firmly believe the powers that be are using various mediums at their disposal to teach hatred among us common folk. Keep us fighting amongst ourselves so we do not turn our attention to those who are living high on the hog, living on the backs of the rest of us.

And it's working. So few common folk seem to have hearts and souls filled with compassion and so few are willing to compromise. We spit and curse at the needy and tell them to "GET A JOB YA LOWLIFE!", and yet we ignore those at the top who have never actually had to perform manual labor for anything. Many of them don't even know how to work a washing machine or drive a picture hanger, and those are the ones who live off the backs of thousands.

[hoborob]

We spit and curse at the needy and tell them to "GET A JOB YA LOWLIFE!", and yet we ignore those at the top who have never actually had to perform manual labor for anything. Many of them don't even know how to work a washing machine or drive a picture hanger, and those are the ones who live off the backs of thousands.

I agree Moon, sadly it is only when you are on the other side of the fence where you either cannot or are simply unable to "Get A Job", that we realize how easy it is to say that to someone that doesn't while we do. I am basically in that position now myself and it is sad to know that there are still those that are callous enough to make those comments and it is simply out of ignorance that they are made. Instead of telling someone "down on their luck" to dig themselves out reach out and find out why they may be where they are and see if you can help them out. I am not saying that there ain't those that are where they are by their own choices and choice but there are many that would very much like to be a part of something bigger than themselves and simply are in a position that they cannot do anything about it and simply need a hand up.

I myself can only think that in the end the books will be balanced and those that have enjoyed a life of luxury will find themselves on the other side of the coin so to speak. But that would simply be vindictive and I'm not that sort of person. I will be and continue to be happy with what I do have and where I am and doing what I can to improve my situation. After all my problems are just that my problems, and to those that are helping I offer a gracious "Thank you for what you can do for me."