Am I Being Too Unfair or Too Harsh

[ziggy_encaoua]

Need fols advice is this being too unfair or too harsh?

[JRMILLER]

Ziggy,
You know you can do anything you like. However, if your aim is to discuss men's fashion, whatever that may entail, then I think it achieves your goal.

You make it very clear that TG discussions won't be tolerated, next thing to do is to quickly pull the rug on them if they start up.

-john

[cessna152towser]

Being pedantic I'd say "participated" should read "participate" and "non" should read "none".
Apart from that, seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me.

[Big and Bashful]

Looks fine to me too, I haven't looked at the grammar, just the meaning (It's too late at night to be picky!), but yes, good.

[Milfmog]

Ziggy,

I have no problem with the intent of your post (at least as I understand it). However I don't think this should be (just) a post on the defiant-Angel forum. It needs to be presented to people before they register and should be clearly displayed on the forum, much as Bob has a header explaining the basis of this site at the top of every page. I'm not sure that it needs to be EVERY page but it does need to be clearly and readily visible in many places on the site as a reminder to participants of the scope of the forum.

I also think that you need to be careful to avoid giving the impression of being anti-TG or anti-crossdresser as that will only be likely to provoke negativity and hostility. After all, if the "MFF movement" is seen as intolerant of others how can it reasonably expect others to be tolerant of it?

I do feel that your original post is too negative and rather a blunt instrument, I have tried to rewrite your statement to convey the same meaning while presenting it positively and without appearing to set out to antagonise folks at a different place on the gender spectrum. My suggestion is below, please feel free to ignore, modify or adopt all or part of my scribblings as you see fit.

Have fun,


Ian.

---------------------------------------------------------
Suggested alternative to Ziggy's words:


THIS FORUM IS ABOUT MEN'S FASHION FREEDOM

This forum was set up specifically for those who wish to help promote & practice the philosophy of Men’s Fashion Freedom; ie the wearing by men of clothing that is not usually associated with men in western society. The forum does not exist to discuss subjects relating to gender or transgenderism.

Therefore the following rules are invoked:

No female user names unless of course you are a woman.
No usernames referring to being a transvestite or crossdresser.
No Discussion of gender issues except as they relate to Men’s Fashion Freedom
No Discussion of artificial body parts that men do not have
No Discussion of clothing which are specific to body parts men do not have

While we hold nothing against transgendered folk, participants are here to discuss and promote Men's Fashion Freedom which has different aims to those of transgendered community.

[sapphire]

Ian,
I agree with your remarks and also your attempt to restructure the opening statement into something more positive.

My suggestion are below:
The opening statement "This forum is non transgendered' I to the point, but is blunt and harsh. How about something like "This forum is for men who wish to explore other masculine fashion expressions and not for men who wish to appear in feminine forms of fashion expresssion."

You also include the statement: "No Discussion of gender issues except as they relate to Men’s Fashion Freedom"
I'm not sure I understand that. Could you please clarify.

Please don't line up the rotten vegetable to throw at me. I'm feeling that I need some clarification to truly understand the dilemma you are facing.
Thanks
Sapphire

[ziggy_encaoua]

Right now I'm getting all entangled in templates & CSS

My brain isn't suited to code

[crfriend]

I may sound like an old fart here, but I believe that good writing is vastly more important than "code, templates, and CSS" any day. The latter add "splash and flash"; the former lends an air of gravitas and civility to a page. Too, good writing transcends the vagaries of browsers and reading mechanisms, not all of which interpret CSS and the rest with equal aplomb.

Hone your idea to a razor's edge -- and then add the "eye-candy". Your readers will thank you for it.

[Inertia]

Amen, brother. Gravitas, civility, and the evidence of intelligence, and of coherent thought. It's not an "old fart" value; it's a skill that's not taught nearly as universally as it ought to be.

Cheers,

Inertia

[ziggy_encaoua]

Cheers guys I've taken advice on board I'll take care of it tomorrow its late & cold here Ziggy needs his bed

[ziggy_encaoua]

No Discussion of gender issues except as they relate to Men’s Fashion Freedom" I'm not sure I understand that. Could you please clarify.

Well it might of made more sense if you'd quoted correctly

No Discussion of transgender issues unless they relate to Men’s Fashion Freedom

[Jack Williams]

Not sure that i understood much of that, but i would say i would agree with Inertia on it. Jack

[Bob]

Good luck, Ziggy!

I'd like to share my "tidbit" here. When I first took over SkirtCafe, I believed there was a clear distinction between "Men's Fashion Freedom" and "Transgender." I no longer believe that. As moderator, I have seen and had to deal with many men --- including myself --- who wear skirts for many reasons. Every time I've tried to really pin things down, someone or something has shown me that my view was not big enough. Gender is more complex than I ever imagined. And like it or not, SkirtCafe has to deal with gender because it is promoting a gender taboo.

I have also learned that "transgender" is not such a scary term as I once thought; it is actually an umbrella term for just about any non-gender-conforming behavior or presentation. The vast majority of those whom one might consider to be "transgender" or "genderqueer" do not modify their bodies or hormonal systems. In fact, some people at SkirtCafe fit into the transgender umbrella category. I am not worried about this forum "going" transgender. SkirtCafe is clearly different from the transgender forums, and that is not about to change by accident, because the "tone" of the forum is set by the category headings.

The fact is, the same person might identify as trasngender or not trasngender, depending on the social setting. In an environment with very little fashion (or gender) freedom, a man who does not fit into what is expected of men might decide he needs to transition to being a woman. Or he might do the crossdresser thing, fitting into an equally repressive female mold by night. In a more accepting environment, the very same man might find that he's OK with being male, as long as he's able to express himself properly through presentation. That is why I no longer believe in a clear distinction between the transgender and fashion freedom communities. (And there will be some people with a driving need to change their gender, no matter how liberal their society is).

In short, things are complex. I don't understand fully, and I probably never will. So in the end, I try to promote an environment of openness, honesty and mutual respect. That's why I have a hard time with the crossdresser thing, but not really with the transgender or transsexual thing.

[Kris]

... In short, things are complex. ...

Great post, Bob!
Yes, things are very complex.

People tend to think of things, whenever possible, as either/or, masculine/feminine, male/female, 0/1, a binary model of the world.
But most things are really a continuum.
Picture the back of a Bactrian Camel (the two-humped kind). It's back is a model for gender! Mark one hump as male, the other as female. Most of the mass of the camel's back falls close to one hump or the other, but a fair amount lies in between or to either end. One end would be hyper-masculine, the other end hyper-feminine, and in between is ???
Well, that's transgender.
I've actually been working on a little paper to try to clarify my own thinking on the subject, and explain it to others. Perhaps I'll share it here sometime.


Kris