Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

[kilthose]

There is a presumption that because we all have an interest in unbifurcated garments, that we all have common aims, problems, and issues. It is not so.

When I wear a kilt out and about the reactions are very different to when I wear a skirt. Furthermore, if I was to add hose, nail varnish, heels, and makeup, the reaction would, I imagine, be very different still. The issues in explaining my attire to friends, family or coworkers would be very different depending on which of these three variations I wore -- in the first they'd be confident I was not crossdressing, in the second they'd suspect it, and in the last they'd be confident I was into crossdressing.

When wearing a skirt my single largest obstacle is the perception of cross dressing. Thus middle of the road male skirt wearers can be frustrated by having to battle the activities of forum brothers whose interests emphasise the perception of cross dressing.

The bottom line for me is that, as evidenced by WDP's essay at kiltmen.com, the more femme skirt wearers have been a concern for kilt and skirt wearers for a long time. I can see no circumstance where this is going to change in the foreseeable future. We've been coming to blows for 10 years, and will continue to come to blows for 10 more years. The difference in our goals is greater than what keeps us together.

Tom's Cafe, regardless of its success, could not hold all these groups together in the past. There was too much tension. "Bravehearts" left for X-Marks, and kiltmen, and Yahoo Utilitkilt forums, and "freestylers" left for the Atrium, and IMFF. The current problem seems to be that the failure of IMFF and Atrium have brought the instability back as people have returned and reignited old tensions.

The only resolution I foresee to this tension is SkirtCafe splitting in future, either explicitly, or by defection. Not sure if that happens tomorrow, or in one year, but I am confident it will happen sometime. The only question is which side of the split SkirtCafe ends up.

KH

[crfriend]

When wearing a skirt my single largest obstacle is the perception of cross dressing. Thus middle of the road male skirt wearers can be frustrated by having to battle the activities of forum brothers whose interests emphasise the perception of cross dressing.

Personally, I think the overt focus on "crossdressing" is overplayed, and is mainly brought up by folks who have an innate insecurity about their appearance. I mean no disrespect to anyone individually by this, but from appearances, guys tend to be really insecure about anything that might not be considered entirely "masculine". Witness the occasional flare-up regarding that issue.

The bottom line for me is that, as evidenced by WDP's essay at kiltmen.com, the more femme skirt wearers have been a concern for kilt and skirt wearers for a long time. I can see no circumstance where this is going to change in the foreseeable future.

From my understanding of it, the "original" "bravehearts" were kilt-only to the exclusion of almost everything else. WDP's essay clarifies that somewhat, but leaves holes. To further muddy the waters, nobody has provided a decent definition of "masculine"; I'll posit that the notion is fluid and has changed over the years to become very restrictive in what behaviours/appearances are permitted -- and that what is not mandatory is prohibited.

Tom's Cafe, regardless of its success, could not hold all these groups together in the past. There was too much tension. [...] The current problem seems to be that the failure of IMFF and Atrium have brought the instability back as people have returned and reignited old tensions.

Certainly the implosion of IMFF rattled the bars a little bit, and the recent upheaval at The Atrium has changed the character of the landscape here, but I believe it's sad if we can never see eye to eye. The world is a big place, and is full of interesting viewpoints, ideas, and people; I think it's a shame to wall ourselves off from the knowledge that can be gained (and offered) from interacting with people with different world-views.

The only resolution I foresee to this tension is SkirtCafe splitting in future, either explicitly, or by defection.

That was explicitly discussed, both on- and off- line, a while ago, and generated a lot of controversy. Bob was ready to split the forum into a "Freestyle Cafe" and retain SkirtCafe as more of a technical/fashion/advocacy forum. I was an ardent supporter of maintaining a "big tent" approach, although I'm beginning to believe I may have been in error at the time. Bob, at the moment, has "larger fish to fry" than looking after an on-line forum, so any formal changes are likely way off in the wings.

Splitting the community remains an option, and may well be revisited at some point in the future. Personally, I'm not particularly interested in gender bits or T* stuff; my interests lie, as previously stated, in getting skirted garments accepted on men in day-to-day settings at most, if not all, levels of "dressiness". This puts me more on the technical/design/advocacy level than griping that I'm not allowed to wear nylons and high heels. It turns out that if I ignore the "implicit prohibition" clause of the "masculine argument" above, I can wear such things simultaneously but will be judged with suspicion by others around me. It then becomes a question of, "Am I man enough to deal with that judgment?".

[Departed Member]

When wearing a skirt my single largest obstacle is the perception of cross dressing. Thus middle of the road male skirt wearers can be frustrated by having to battle the activities of forum brothers whose interests emphasise the perception of cross dressing.

Personally, I think the overt focus on "crossdressing" is overplayed, and is mainly brought up by folks who have an innate insecurity about their appearance. I mean no disrespect to anyone individually by this, but from appearances, guys tend to be really insecure about anything that might not be considered entirely "masculine". Witness the occasional flare-up regarding that issue.

I would heartily agree with kilthose here, and, I'm sorry, totally reject the concept that "insecurity" is at the heart of of a genuine dislike of the femme/crossdressing advocates. Donning a skirt should not be regarded as a faltering, first step to the discovery of the alleged "joys of femininity", that a small number here persist in preaching. There are, after all, far more accomodating websites for those who want to look (& feel?) 'pretty'. This website, and the preceding versions, have, until recently, stood alone in upholding the 'middle ground'. Blokes who don't want to be a 'centre of attention', don't want to attract adverse remarks. That's not 'insecurity' - it's a quite forceful declaration of intent, in fact, I would respectfully submit.

[JRMILLER]

Carl wrote:

Personally, I'm not particularly interested in gender bits or T* stuff; my interests lie, as previously stated, in getting skirted garments accepted on men in day-to-day settings at most, if not all, levels of "dressiness". This puts me more on the technical/design/advocacy level than griping that I'm not allowed to wear nylons and high heels. It turns out that if I ignore the "implicit prohibition" clause of the "masculine argument" above, I can wear such things simultaneously but will be judged with suspicion by others around me. It then becomes a question of, "Am I man enough to deal with that judgment?".

Here here! Thanks for spelling it out so nicely. This is the bottom line for me too.

Happy New Year guys, try not to overdo it!

[ziggy_encaoua]

Some of the attitudes being expressed here are bordering on outright bigotry.

It really comes off sounding like…

This place should only be for men who want to wear skirts period & anybody who wants to push the envelope further should bog off!

Just because some men push things further doesn’t mean that they’re any less of man. It doesn’t mean that they’re a CD or TV it just means they’re more open minded unlike some here who have stunk this thread up with insecure, small minded & bigoted mentalities.

You know I originally came from a land where the government had the mentality that blacks should have their land & whites should have theirs, itt was called apartheid I’d hoped the human race might learn why such a thing is wrong, wrong, wrong!

[JRMILLER]

Ziggy,
Not the way I see it, I think the bottom line is I don't care what the motivation for wearing skirts and such is. More interested in gaining simple acceptance without fear of tar and feathers.

[Sarongman]

South Africa is going well so far but, I'd hate to be a white farmer, or even an ordinary black citizen in the old Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) which is riding to hell under a senile old madman and his bunch of thuggish cronies.

[crfriend]

Just because some men push things further doesn’t mean that they’re any less of man. It doesn’t mean that they’re a CD or TV it just means they’re more open minded unlike some here who have stunk this thread up with insecure, small minded & bigoted mentalities.

Quite likely there are as many reasons for wearing skirts as there are guys who do so, and the beauty of it is that all of those reasons are valid -- none are intrinsically "right" and none are intrinsically "wrong". They just are. The only problem comes in when somebody is lying about his reason, which he should not need to do in the first place.

I'm coming to think that some of the problems that have been boiling up in this thread is that some folks think that others may be lying about their reasons for wearing skirts, and that the reason for the "deception" is a desire to push a hidden agenda. This can be avoided prima facie by being up-front and honest about one's reasoning -- and if one's reasoning changes as to why he wishes to wear skirted garments then to state the change, and why it occurred. This automatically sorts out any sort of "categorisation" that may -- or may not -- need to happen.

It has been stated in the past -- officially, too, if I'm not mistaken -- that this is not a "orthodox" TV/CD site. If the reason you wear skirts is to role-play a woman, there are better sites that will cater to your requirements than this one. This in no way invalidates your reason for wearing such attire, it just means that there are resources available that more closely align with that reason. The above having been said, if there's a perception that one is lying about his reason to push an orthodox TV/CD agenda in this community, he'll likely be in for a rough go of things -- because of the deception not the reason.

So, transparency and honesty count here. What, however, happens if one's reason for wearing skirts changes? This is OK -- perfectly fine, in fact -- because we as humans grow and change over time. Call it "evolution" if you will. This means that our reason can -- perhaps should -- change over time; however, if that happens we should be honest about it -- with ourselves, and if affects our community then we should be honest with our community about it as well. This goes both ways equally; if an "orthodox TV/CD's" reason changes, and he's honest about it, he should be accepted -- likewise, if one of our reasons flips into the "orthodox TV/CD" realm he should be honest about that, too.

Finally, I don't necessarily care what your reason may be; just don't lie to me about it, because that will torque me off. And likely everybody else, too.

[ziggy_encaoua]

I'm coming to think that some of the problems that have been boiling up in this thread is that some folks think that others may be lying about their reasons for wearing skirts, and that the reason for the "deception" is a desire to push a hidden agenda.

Let me make this very clear my only agenda is for men to have a far greater choice in expressing themselves fashion wise, whether its wearing skirts, dresses, platforms or make up. Not trying to turn any guy into any tranny, sissy or wuss. I want guys to have fashion parity with women & for them to still be considered men.

That’s my agenda nothing more & nothing less.

[ziggy_encaoua]

simple acceptance without fear of tar and feathers

In my case I'd like an abscence shinheads being verbally abusive & gobbing at me.

But yeah social acceptence is I guess what we all seek

[Departed Member]

It really comes off sounding like…

This place should only be for men who want to wear skirts period & anybody who wants to push the envelope further should bog off!

Please bear in mind that the genesis of this current forum was to cater for blokes who merely wanted to exchange tr*user for skirt, mostly for the obvious health & comfort reasons. Some admittedly, saw a skirt as a "fashion option". Others, whilst Kilt or sarong orientated, saw those as 'ethnic choices'. Over a period of time, and a number of squabbles, the "Kilt-onlys" either joined one of many Kilt forums or created new ones, such as "X Marks the Scot", and the "Fashion Freedom" advocates, left for the then brand new "Chris's Atrium" or one of the very many CD/TV forums which largely predated "Tom's".

Just because some men push things further doesn’t mean that they’re any less of man. It doesn’t mean that they’re a CD or TV it just means they’re more open minded unlike some here who have stunk this thread up with insecure, small minded & bigoted mentalities.

I'm really not sure where you're coming from here, Ziggy. If I joined a forum discussing, say, WW2 Aircraft, and went on to extol the virtues, often at great length, about Phantoms or Tornados, pompously telling all and sundry how much 'better' they were, and how bigotted other members were for protesting that the topic was, err, WW2 Aircraft, then who's being 'small minded'? Come on now, you've started an admirable website of your own. Your objectives are clearly spelt out. They include everything you (& one or two others) berate the rest of us for 'not accepting'. There's no 'insecurity' or 'bigotry' in not wanting, for instance, to have a piercing, or a tattoo. Indeed, on the many occasions when such topics have been the subject of pub discussion, it becomes pretty obvious who's 'insecure' and who's not! It's not a question of 'pushing things further', rather that of 'a different direction'. There is no 'road of discovery' that folk here are on, only the personal road, they choose to tread, and to be honest, the company they wish to keep.

You know I originally came from a land where the government had the mentality that blacks should have their land & whites should have theirs, itt was called apartheid I’d hoped the human race might learn why such a thing is wrong, wrong, wrong!

I've met too many folk from southern Africa (I don't recognise the terms, "black" or "white", by the way) to take too much notice of what you're saying here. It really is not helpful to introduce such an emotive (& so completely irrelevant) topic into this thread, surely you can see that?

[ziggy_encaoua]

It really is not helpful to introduce such an emotive

Its not helpful that you're so narrow minded

the "Fashion Freedom" advocates, left for the then brand new "Chris's Atrium" or one of the very many CD/TV forums

You're linking freestylers with transvestitism as I say just because a man dares to go further it does not mean he's any less of a man but you seem to wish paint otherwise

Please bear in mind that the genesis of this current forum was to cater for blokes who merely wanted to exchange tr*user for skirt

Things change!

Things evolve!

[ziggy_encaoua]

By the way Merlin rather then piss & whine, rather then trying to hijack these forums & turning into 'the bigoted skirt forums', why not start up your own discussion forum where men can discuss skirts & only the wearing of skirts or of course you learn to be a bit more tolerant towards others.

[AMM]

It really comes off sounding like…

This place should only be for men who want to wear skirts period & anybody who wants to push the envelope further should bog off!

Please bear in mind that the genesis of this current forum was to cater for blokes who merely wanted to exchange tr*user for skirt, mostly for the obvious health & comfort reasons.

This doesn't quite square with my impression from back when I joined Tom's Cafe. As I recall, there was quite a mix of people, from the kilt-only folks to, for example, the guy who was into wearing a skating dress. And while there have always been those who wanted to switch to a skirt with a minimal change in look, there have in my time been plenty of people who were willing to experiment with other things. I recall there was a guy who posted a picture of himself wearing a long robe to his wedding, and I thought he called himself "Merlin."

That said, my impression is that nowadays, the conflicts on SkirtCafe have not really been about "freestyle" vs. "braveheart." I think the main sources of conflict are a tendency to write in overly strong terms, to the point of sounding (and perhaps being) intolerant, and a tendency to react intemperately to real and imagined slights.

I have been criticized in the past for objecting to some people's tone of conversation. I have been told that I am trying to suppress all disagreements. But I think there's a difference between strong disagreement that's conducted in a spirit of mutual respect and a "brawl" in which people are putting one another down and ascribing dark motives to their opponents. All too often, I see people crossing the line.

It's an old, old rule, but it is still as relevant now as it was when I was a child: if you want to make an angry retort, write it down, put it under your pillow, and sleep on it. Reread it (and whatever got you mad) the next day and see if you still want to say it. Most of the time you don't.

[Stevie D]

..... I recall there was a guy who posted a picture of himself wearing a long robe to his wedding, and I thought he called himself "Merlin."

No - that was me, Stevie D. My wife and I both wore dresses at our handfasting and civil wedding ceremony a couple of days later. These were both very public events, the former being attended by over 100 guests in a public park and woodland and the latter involving a short walk through the centre of Sheffield to the Town Hall and to a nearby restaurant afterwards. Both our dresses were made especially for us. If anyone is uncomfortable with with the idea of me wearing a dress, they can call it a robe if they like, but actually it was a dress based on a medieval lady's dress.

handfasting.jpg