Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

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Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby ziggy_encaoua » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:06 am

I’ve never understood the whole Freestyler versus Braveheart thing

I’ve just had a thread I set up about starting a new MFF discussion forum by peoplewho are unhappy with somebody being more fem then them.

Is there any doubt I’m not male nor would I deny I’m male.

Even though I dye my hair & wear make up.

Then there’s my liking for platform boots.

It appears to some here that would classed as being too ‘fem’ maybe some might class me being a ‘tranny’.

To me a tranny is somebody who adopts a female persona & sure should be seeking out support etc from the TG community as MFF is definitely not transgendered.

Those of us who preach & practice MFF are a very small number indeed so its kind of ridiculous that we squabble that some choose or choose not to be a Braveheart or freestyler.

I understand that there will be folk who won’t like my choice of fashion on these boards but I’d hope they’d be tolerant & supportive of my right to express myself freely just as I’d respect & support the right for them to express themselves freely.

Its ridiculous actually its f**king ridiculous that we squabble especially as I say we are merely but a small number trying to change fashion culture & so maybe rather then squabble we should be more respectful & supportive of each others personal choice of expression so long as an individual isn’t pretending to be anything other then male.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Milfmog » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:52 am

ziggy_encaoua wrote:I’ve never understood the whole Freestyler versus Braveheart thing

< SNIP >

Is there any doubt I’m not male nor would I deny I’m male.

Even though I dye my hair & wear make up.

Then there’s my liking for platform boots.

It appears to some here that would classed as being too ‘fem’ maybe some might class me being a ‘tranny’.

And therein lies the danger of freedom; we are all different and if we have freedom we will choose to exercise it in different ways. The only way forward that I can see is a live and let live approach to life coupled with mutual respect.

Ziggy chooses to present himself in ways that are as alien to me as anything I can envisage. I have no desire whatsoever to dress like him BUT I am genuinely happy that he feels able to dress as he chooses and hope that others will extend the same simple courtesy to everyone they encounter either here in cyberspace or in what Carl so charmingly refers to as meatspace.

The way I see it, if I want to be free I have to allow others to also be free. So let’s celebrate our similarities and our differences; it is the combination of the two that makes people so interesting.

Having said that, I fully accept that freedoms bring responsibilities. This forum is based on the concept of gender honesty; males do not present themselves as females nor vice versa. There is a moratorium on discussion of clothing that is not intended to be seen (except in so far as it enhances the visible) and by my use of this forum I have accepted that these local rules should be adhered to. If I want to discuss items that are off limits here, I will look for somewhere appropriate to do it, my freedom to discuss underwear (or whatever) does not trump the freedom of others here not to have to read it.

Sorry, time to get back down from my soapbox; I just get so fed up with the petty squabbling…

Have fun,


Ian.

PS: hope the new forum is a success Ziggy. At present this one suits me just fine but I’ll probably check in from time to time and may become active if it feels like home to me.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby cessna152towser » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:15 pm

I don't have a problem with other members dressing in whatever they feel comfortable with, so long as it is decent, and I will defend their right to dress as they please. Personally my wardrobe is restricted to traditional Scottish kilts and to modern kilts or kilt style skirts and jeans skirts, both of which owe their origins to cut down trousers. While the Utilikilt and its various parodies owe their origin to cut down military trousers and were marketed for men from the outset, the jeans skirt first entered fashion as a women's garment thirty years ago and it is only in recent times, thanks to the likes of Midasclothing.com that these have become available in male waist/hip ratios. Just because I choose not to wear skirts which were designed for women does not mean I have any quarrel with those who do.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby AMM » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:55 pm

cessna152towser wrote:Just because I choose not to wear skirts which were designed for women....

Just to muddy the waters: by now, most of my skirts were designed for men. To be precise, for a particular man -- me! :) (As my friends will tell you, I am most particular :cool: .)

(And if I had more time for sewing, they'd all be designed for a man.)
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby SkirtDude » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:39 am

AMM wrote:Just to muddy the waters: by now, most of my skirts were designed for men. To be precise, for a particular man -- me! :)


That is exactly why I sew :thumleft: - I get exactly what I want not what somebody else thinks will sell.

As the folks who have seen my pics know I don't try to present as a woman at all, but at the same time it can sometimes be incredibly positive to push my own limits (as I recently did with the short sparkley skirt + tights + purple shoes)
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Mipi » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:59 am

For sure, we have to be supportive and open minded.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Jack Williams » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:19 pm

But sometimes pushing the outer limits of the surrounding perceptions may be counterproductive. Jack.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby crfriend » Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:52 pm

But sometimes pushing the outer limits of the surrounding perceptions may be counterproductive.

That's true, but it also depends on context. If I recall, SkirtDude was at a party with folks who know him and folks he's comfortable around (and vice-versa), so that was a good time to "push" things a wee bit. If the effort is viewed in a fun light, there will be, as the saying goes, "no harm, no foul" and nobody will get their nose out of joint. Pulling the same thing "on the street" or with folks who you don't know might yield different results altogether.

My hat's off to SkirtDude for "stretching things" a bit; sometimes one needs to consciously push one's self out of perceived mediocrity. :toast:
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby ziggy_encaoua » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:55 pm

crfriend wrote:My hat's off to SkirtDude for "stretching things" a bit; sometimes one needs to consciously push one's self out of perceived mediocrity. :toast:


Well if folk are interested in pushing things a bit then its going on here :D
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Sasquatch » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:11 pm

If a man is going to dress in a way that goes against the flow, and that garners odd looks if not outright offensive remarks, then he may as well dress in the way that makes himself happy and conforms to his own comfort zone. I'm against the idea of modifying your personal style because some think you've gone too far and others think you've not gone far enough! In the eyes of some who look at us, any deviation from bifurcation is "too far"! So, as the old saying goes, you might as well be hung for a goat as for a sheep! Or as Ricky Nelson sang: "You can't please everyone so you have to please yourself."

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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby crfriend » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:07 pm

Milfmog wrote:[[... I would] hope that others will extend the same simple courtesy to everyone they encounter either here in cyberspace or in what Carl so charmingly refers to as meatspace.

Much as I would like to lay claim to originating that term, I cannot. I heard it first from a professor at George Mason University who was working up an on-line curriculum and asked me for some opinions on "computer-assisted teaching". The term first appeared here on 2008-06-13 courtesy of SkirtDude: well done.

As an historical matter, the whole notion may be based on Terry Bisson's short-short story They're made out of meat. It's a fun read; I recommend it heartily!
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Kris » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:22 am

crfriend wrote:
Milfmog wrote:[[... I would] hope that others will extend the same simple courtesy to everyone they encounter either here in cyberspace or in what Carl so charmingly refers to as meatspace.

Much as I would like to lay claim to originating that term, I cannot. I heard it first from a professor at George Mason University who was working up an on-line curriculum and asked me for some opinions on "computer-assisted teaching". The term first appeared here on 2008-06-13 courtesy of SkirtDude: well done.

As an historical matter, the whole notion may be based on Terry Bisson's short-short story They're made out of meat. It's a fun read; I recommend it heartily!


Thanks for posting that, Carl. I really got a kick out of that short story.

I see that 1993 is the earliest use of "meatspace" that Wikipedia could come up with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meatspace

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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Skirt Chaser » Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:51 am

crfriend wrote:As an historical matter, the whole notion may be based on Terry Bisson's short-short story They're made out of meat. It's a fun read; I recommend it heartily!


I liked that story but have an earlier reference, 1917 to be precise. This is what the term meatspace always calls to mind- Baum's land of Oz. Several times Baum has his characters refer to "meat people" as opposed to the various life forms of tin, straw, patchwork and stuffing, ....

Here's a nice quote from The Lost Princess of Oz which can be found here http://www.classicreader.com/book/110/26/

Lyman Frank Baum wrote:"And I feel much better now that my joints are oiled," returned the Tin Woodman with a sigh of pleasure. "You and I, friend Scarecrow, are much more easily cared for than those clumsy meat people, who spend half their time dressing in fine clothes and who must live in splendid dwellings in order to be contented and happy. You and I do not eat, and so we are spared the dreadful bother of getting three meals a day. Nor do we waste half our lives in sleep, a condition that causes the meat people to lose all consciousness and become as thoughtless and helpless as logs of wood."


I'm so glad the meat people here spend time dressing in fine clothes!

Edited to add: I forgot the point I meant to make. :oops: I've always wondered why a segment of the bravehearts is unsupportive of the freestylers. The way I see it, freestylers make bravehearts look almost "normal" making acceptance easier I would think.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby Departed Member » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:26 pm

Skirt Chaser wrote: I've always wondered why a segment of the bravehearts is unsupportive of the freestylers. The way I see it, freestylers make bravehearts look almost "normal" making acceptance easier I would think.


I don't think it is a 'segment' as such, more like the overwhelming majority! And it (freestyling) is probably the single most damning factor in finding 'acceptance' (or more precisely, understanding) for blokes who just want to/are considering 'replace tr*user with skirt', even on a casual (i.e., occasional) basis. For whatever reason, there does seem to be a thought process among partners faced with a declaration of, "I fancy wearing a skirt!", that it may 'lead on' to full-blown cross dressing/transvestism. I'm making no judgment here, purely a recurrent observation over many years.
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Re: Can We Stop The Squabbling Please!

Postby crfriend » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:19 pm

I've always wondered why a segment of the bravehearts is unsupportive of the freestylers. The way I see it, freestylers make bravehearts look almost "normal" making acceptance easier I would think.


I don't think it is a 'segment' as such, more like the overwhelming majority! And it (freestyling) is probably the single most damning factor in finding 'acceptance' (or more precisely, understanding) for blokes who just want to/are considering 'replace tr*user with skirt', even on a casual (i.e., occasional) basis.

[Mod hat off. Not just off, but balled up in a wad and pitched to the far corner of the room!]

OK, for the sake of argument, can we define -- precisely, please -- what the difference between "braveheart" and "freestyler" is? This is important, because without a precisely defined boundary this damned wound is going to continue to fester and cause needless grief! Does the "braveheart" end when the kilt is doffed and another skirt -- there, I've gone and said it -- is donned? Does it happen when a bloke decides to shave his legs? Does it happen if one ventures outside the strictly-prescribed "acceptable way" to wear a kilt? Even in the kilt-only world, there must be some boundary as to what's "tasteful" and "acceptable". So, where's the line?

Here's a notion: perhaps the "bravehearts" are a wee bit chicken in their outlook and are insecure about who they are, and how they wish to present themselves to the world. Is that inflammatory enough? Can bravehearts not get over the notion that a kilt is in fact a skirt (Yes, I've gone and said it again) that has been granted "special status"? What's wrong with these guys? The kilt's "special status" is illusory at best, and specious at worst. I think it's getting used as a crutch.

I first started considering "shoving both legs down one pipe" back in the early 1980s, and at the time the only "answer" was a kilt -- and the entire "kilt regime" seemed as fully stultifying as a tuxedo. Properly worn, it remains so. If I need that much structure and baggage to excuse myself for wearing a skirt it's just not worth it. I'm better than that; I don't need to hide behind an illusion. Does this make me a crossdresser/transvestite (same thing, there, by the way)? I submit, "No". It makes me someone who has grown weary of the same drab, prescribed, boring, utilitarian man-wear that's been pounded into guys' psyches for generations. I want the freedom (Oh! That makes me a "freestyler", then! He said a dirty word!) to explore the sensations of "new" (read, "previously forbidden") fabrics; to step outside the prescribed "box" that's been closing in around me since early adulthood; to understand and appreciate that it might -- just might -- be possible to actually look good and feel good (at more than one level) at the same time. So, if that makes me a "freestyler" (Ooh! He said a dirty word again!), then so be it. Take your prescribed monkey-suits and shove 'em. (Although, I candidly admit that an all-up kilt rig is one of the sharpest-looking pieces of gear going.)

For whatever reason, there does seem to be a thought process among partners faced with a declaration of, "I fancy wearing a skirt!", that it may 'lead on' to full-blown cross dressing/transvestism. I'm making no judgment here, purely a recurrent observation over many years.

I don't mean to rain on the parade, but that sounds very much like judgment to me. Yes, I understand the reticence of partners, mainly because of (perceived) social stigma -- and that does exist in the more "ignorant" of the species -- when it comes to "alternative" fashion (read, "anything but trousers or the strictly-prescribed formal kilt"); we need to push past that as a species. We deserve better. No matter what the Taleban may be telling us.
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