New MFF Discussion Forum

[ziggy_encaoua]

http://defiant-angel.org/forum/index.php

Finally Defiant Angel has a discussion forum

All in Men’s Fashion Freedom are welcome

But beware I’m not as draconian as Bob

[Sarongman]

Funny, I don't think Bob is draconian enough! (especially coming down on overly feminising threads)

[Big and Bashful]

Funny, I don't think Bob is draconian enough! (especially coming down on overly feminising threads)

I second that!

I would like to see this forum ruled more "wth an iron hand" than with a wooden foot, or even a piece of string!

Ziggy, what direction do you hope your forum will take?

[ziggy_encaoua]

Ziggy, what direction do you hope your forum will take?

Apart from keeping it pretty non transgendered I'm pretty lassie faire

Really its up to those who join the forum to shape its direction

[crfriend]

Funny, I don't think Bob is draconian enough! (especially coming down on overly feminising threads)

I second that!

I would like to see this forum ruled more "wth an iron hand" than with a wooden foot, or even a piece of string!

[Mod hat on]

OK, then, what constitutes a "feminising thread"? What doesn't? Those are not rhetorical questions, either.

On one hand, the forum could be moderated so tightly it'd resemble a kilt-only forum where no dissenting opinion from the "one true MUG" would be tolerated and be mercilessly expunged; at the other, there might be no moderation at all and the character of the community would suffer. I submit that neither of those scenarios are optimal.

So, where then, is the "line"?

[Mod hat off]

I've commented on the "masculinity problem" when it comes to non-trouser fashion before, and why things sometimes seem to lean more toward "freestyle" than the uber-macho kilt. Now, I'm not bashing kilt-wearers -- quite the opposite. The kilt is a very appropriate mode of attire for guys, but it represents an extreme: one cannot get more "manly"/"macho"/"masculine" in non-trousered western garb than a kilt. One just cannot do it; the only possible analogue would be a south-Pacific warrior in his sarong -- another uber-macho outfit that speaks volumes. But, once we (as experimentative individuals) venture outside those realms why should we be accused of "feminisation"? Are we to limit ourselves to an ever-so-slightly-larger-box than trousers-only (to include kilts and sarongs only)? As I see it, and as I've tried my level best as part of the moderation staff to "guide" things here, we should each set "the line" where we -- as individuals -- find our "comfort point", and that's what I think would be most helpful to the largest cross-section of the community.

Finally, the overwhelming bulk of the work of moderation goes on behind the scenes, out of sight (and mind) of the community. I've been accused of all manner of nastiness and whatnot for some of my moderating decisions, and all I can say is that the job is not as easy or as straightforward as I thought it'd be when I signed up!

Ziggy, what direction do you hope your forum will take?

Whatever direction it takes, Ziggy is in for a ride when he tries to shape his forum in a mould that he'll be proud of!

[ziggy_encaoua]

Ziggy is in for a ride when he tries to shape his forum in a mould that he'll be proud of!

Please don't take offence but Men's Fashion Freedom is larger then one person so please don't view it as 'my forum' its a forum for all interested in MFF

[Big and Bashful]

Ziggy,
Good on you for starting a forum off, I hope it succeeds and once my exam and course are complete (next week) I for one will jump in and give it a go.

Cheers!

[Departed Member]

OK, then, what constitutes a "feminising thread"? What doesn't? Those are not rhetorical questions, either.

When you've got one person constantly bullying (yes! I do mean "bullying"!) all and sundry, by lengthy & oft un-intelligible missives, to climb out of their chosen 'box' and laud him for, well, adopting "women's clothes" as his criteria to which they should aspire.

As I see it, and as I've tried my level best as part of the moderation staff to "guide" things here, we should each set "the line" where we -- as individuals -- find our "comfort point", and that's what I think would be most helpful to the largest cross-section of the community.

One person's comfort point is, as has been (sadly) shown in recent months, another person's 'jumping-off' point. Alienating dozens, to be perceived as being 'fair' to the odd individual on the extreme (& you've already, and correctly, identified Kilt wearers as the ultimate in 'macho', so it must be the other end of the spectrum!) has proven costly in terms of overall numbers of participating subscribers.

There, I've been as honest, and I believe objective, as I can. And, yes, I am but one voice!

[Sarongman]

Ziggy, I'll keep an eye on your new site, but I don't think I'll join in until I see the "lay of the land". Carl, I realise that your Pickelhaub is heavy and you are reuctant to wear it but the person whom Merlin alludes to is but one case in point. I am also most uncomfortable with threads that espouse perfume, makeup, nail varnish and the public wearing of dresses straight away. I know it is my freedom to not participate in such threads and, as a rule, I do not. My take on this forum was that it was to encourage the wearing of unbifurcated garments and the greater acceptace by the general populace of same choice. Anything that pushes the boundary past the G.P.s comfort zone does our cause immense harm. From personal experience, a conservative skirt is a non event to over 80% of the populace but, pushing the boundaries will reinforce prejudices. When it comes to kilts, I'd love one but the expense, at present, precludes same and, I'd love a real warriors great kilt! I am skirted and proud but will maintain my male integrity thanks.

[crfriend]

[Mod hat on]

OK, then, what constitutes a "feminising thread"? What doesn't? Those are not rhetorical questions, either.

When you've got one person constantly bullying (yes! I do mean "bullying"!) all and sundry, by lengthy & oft un-intelligible missives, to climb out of their chosen 'box' and laud him for, well, adopting "women's clothes" as his criteria to which they should aspire.

I am also most uncomfortable with threads that espouse perfume, makeup, nail varnish and the public wearing of dresses straight away.

OK, there are two bullet-points we can add to what might be considered "feminising", but, and I mean no offence to the contributors, those are only "feminising" if we perceive them to be, and somehow feel "threatened" by them. If we are confortable with the looks that we oruselves put together, what someone else does should not matter all that much.

As far as the "un-named individual" alluded to above is concerned, he is/was very well aware that he represented the furthest fringe of what was going to be tolerated, and a fair bit of moderation effort (measured in hours, mind you) was expended on him to keep his tone and rhetoric "within bounds" (barely). In point of fact, he and another community member (who shall similarly remain un-named) forced the creation of a new "user group" that members can be dropped into when they are perceived to be troublemakers and which requires that a moderator vet their submissions before their posts become visible to the community. One, just one, mention of wigs or other fake body parts would have gotten him the old heave-ho.

[Mod hat off]

Here's my take, as an individual contributor to the community: what we decide to adorn ourselves with is a deeply personal decision, and we all "draw the line" at what we feel comfortable with at different points depending on our surroundings, circumstances, and upbringing. This is normal and healthy. Whilst browbeating is not, there's also the notion of "egging people on" to try things that they might otherwise not -- like trying on a skirt in public for the first time! Recall that one of he raison d'etres of SkirtCafe is to function in a supporting role to those who might want to try skirted garments in public settings; hence, we're doing a little bit of "pushing" ourselves. Does that make us bullies and hypocrites?

Furthermore, it's "more than just the skirt" -- a decent well put-together look encompasses the entire body. While, yes, it's possible to simply swap trousers for a skirt, frequently the results "don't work" well. This, for instance, is why kilt-jackets are different from "normal" sport-jackets. Ultimately, it comes down to "What am I trying to say with this outfit?"; "What is the image I'm trying to project?" And, getting the nuances of what one is trying to project may require some alteration of thought- processes from what's commonly stereotyped as "acceptable" (whatever that is, and who adjudicates it?) for men. Face it, "accessories" are just that -- "tools" that we can use to enhance (or detract from) a look; they are nothing more and nothing less, and that includes things like (gasp) nail varnish and legwear. Consider these items in the same light as what you see in your workmans' box in the garage when you open it. Let's not fall into the "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a snail" trap. (Sorry for that, it's an old sig-line that a pal of mine used for a while, and I thought I'd pass it along.)

Dang. I need more coffee!

[ziggy_encaoua]

Jeez all I wanted to do was announce I'd started a new forum not cause a full blown row about MFF

[crfriend]

Jeez all I wanted to do was announce I'd started a new forum not cause a full blown row about MFF

Somehow, I think that this has "been coming" for a while now.

Personally, I have a feeling in the back of my heart that we've "lost focus" somewhat on the path to get non-trousered styles -- and specifically skirted styles -- accepted on guys by the general public. Over the past year or so, we've discovered that we can sally forth out into the world wearing pretty much what we'd like and not get pilloried for it. This is a good thing, but it allows us to focus a bit too much on "what might be 'unhelpful' or 'harmful' to 'our cause'" -- and that's not terribly healthy (in my opinion) because it detracts from the courage and "gutsiness" required to blaze new trails. And, in turning our own critique inwards we sow the seeds of internal dissent and faction.

Bob brought up a, to my mind at least, fairly compelling idea in his "Our bodies, our voices" thread, which supplanted his earlier "Why do we do this" one. It might be worth another read to see if any of the tenets, notions, and ideas strike a chord; I know that some did with me, although I still haven't found the words to express those thoughts.

We're not going to "get anywhere" by constantly sniping at one another -- and, dare I say it, there are other fora "out there" that may work better for a tightly-focused mindset. X-Marks is "two doors down on the left", as it were, and there are a plethora of "orthodox crossdressing" sites on the "next block". I don't know what's to happen to SkirtCafe, but if it's to remain healthy and vibrant the "section and faction" needs to be brought under control.

OK, I'll step off my soap-box now. And back into the water in my basement....

[cessna152towser]

I sometimes begin to worry that there will be too many fora catering for too few skirted man. As skirts for men become more commonplace and more publicly accepted, fewer will find the need to join an internet forum to gain support for those first skirted outings.
I am already a member of xmarksthescot.com and skirtcafe.org and I feel that two forums are sufficient for my needs, most of my interests are already covered by xmarks, but I also like this forum because it additionally covers non-kilt styles, such as the Midas box pleat skirts for men and jeans skirts and also seems to have a higher proportion of European contributors compared to xmarks which is much more American.
There is already a new European kilt forum started about a year ago which I have not chosen to join, I just worry we will end up with lots of fora with only a handful of contributors on each.

[AMM]

...One, just one, mention of wigs ... would have gotten ... the old heave-ho.

Does that mean we can't pretend to be British judges?

And here Oscar was so hoping to turn this into a site for people who get their jollies by running around in black robes and curly white wigs

"The Honorable T. Grouch" just has such a nice ring to it....

[r.m.anderson]

Remember the TV series 'The Laugh-In' - - -
Well "Here comes the Judge; here comes the Judge"!
And "Sock It to Me; Sock It to Me"!
"You bet your sweet bippie" and the many others.
What this forum and others for that fact need is a bit of levity.
Nothing taken seriously unless maybe it is a pie in the face - I will
take mine 'Chocolate Cream' Please and Thanks!
rm