Men's Wear Depts.

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
Dennis A. Lederle

Men's Wear Depts.

Post by Dennis A. Lederle »

How can the various clothing shops or department stores call it Men's Wear if they don't have kilts, sarongs or caftans for sale?

With the way women have usurped men's wear shouldn't they just call it all just "The Clothing Department" and feature Men's sizes and Women's sizes. There really isn't any men's clothing anymore that women do try on freely adn wear when they want. So why have two clothing departments? It would save stores money if they merged it all!

Would it even be possible to have an "off the rack line of kilts?

I recently bought a sewing pattern from McCalls for making kilts. I'm going to try and make my own. It's the price of kilts that keeps their everyday use down, I beleive.
Dennis A. Lederle
Hi! My Name Is Alice!
Steven W

men in women's jeans

Post by Steven W »

Many men, tired of the extra-baggy styles of men's jeans, are going for the more stylish women's jeans. In fact, many stores are not even marketing the jeans as men's or womens, and simply are placing BOTH sizes on the label. I have done this myself. Women's jeans have smaller thighs, and a lower rise, so they look much better on my small 135 pound frame
Kevin in Madison

Men's Wear Depts. - Shrinking, even dissapearing!

Post by Kevin in Madison »

A friend of mine sent me this article from the New York Times back in June and I ment to post it here back then, but I guess I forgot about it. I ran across it in my Inbox the other day - and then seeing this subject thread - figured I'd put it up here. If menswear departments of stores are getting smaller and even LESS varied in styles, it doesn't look good for these mainstream stores carrying MUGs.

-kevin.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Men Ask: Who Needs to Buy Clothes?

June 8, 2003
By TRACIE ROZHON

MITCHELLS is known around the country as one of the last
great men's retailers - an icon of the traditional carriage
trade, a bastion of ribbon belts and club ties, dark green
linen jackets and light yellow socks, interspersed with
Armani.

Now this venerable men's store in Westport, Conn., is
shrinking its men's clothing space and expanding its
women's department. Hermès purses at $4,750 are shoving
aside Tommy Bahama sport shirts.

Mitchells is hardly the only merchant making a change: last
month, Target said it would reduce the floor space for its
men's collections - to make room for more food.

Across the board, from $5.99 Hawaiian shirts to $2,500
Italian wool suits, the men's clothing market has been
dwindling for years. But now, analysts say they think the
business may have hit bottom - and is ready for a
turnaround. The optimism, though tempered, results not from
any hot fashion trend, but from changes by the stores.

Drastic times call for drastic actions. Gadzooks, a
national chain of casual clothes, jettisoned its men's line
altogether and is liquidating its men's apparel. From now
on, the company will carry only women's clothes. At Target,
the company president, Gregg W. Steinhafel, predicted last
month that "softer-than-average growth" in men's wear would
continue nationally. The company will even downsize,
slightly, the boys' section of the children's department.

Analysts point to many men's-wear shops that have either
gone out of business or added women's clothes and
accessories.

The changes were necessary because of a revolution in
shopping habits, said Marshal Cohen, senior retail analyst
for the NPD Group, a market research firm in Port
Washington, N.Y.. Now, more men pick out their own
clothing. Just three years ago, NPD's polls showed that
women shopped for 76 percent of men. Now, women buy for
less than half of them.

"Women work," Mr. Cohen explained.

And men have a
different shopping style.

"Men don't need to see 40 different pairs of black pants,
the way women like to see," Mr. Cohen said. `'They want to
see three pairs of black pairs, have some clerk tell him
what to wear with them, and move on. The stores simply
don't need the floor space anymore."

"After a decade of decline, the stores are finally figuring
it out," Mr. Cohen said. `'They know men want good service,
in a less painful environment."

In the dismal atmosphere that shrouds the clothing business
these days, men's wear is usually regarded as the worst
performer. C. Britt Beemer, chairman of America's Research
Group, which polls shoppers, said the desire to shop for
men's clothes had continued to drop: it reported a decline
of 8 to 11 percent in shopping for men's wear in the first
six months this year, compared with the corresponding
period last year. And in all of 2002, customers shopped for
men's clothes 4 to 9 percent less than they did in 2001.
The numbers vary by region: the falloff is higher in the
Northeast, where suits have traditionally sold best, and
lower in the South, Mr. Beemer said.

ACCORDING to statistics released last week by the National
Retail Federation, the men's clothing business has been
slumping for years, ever since men's-wear merchants ran out
of new trends for the casual clothes that replaced the suit
as the male default outfit.

After the suit died, American men loaded up on chinos and
polo shirts - and made Gap's stock soar. But three years
ago, with no clear fashion trend and a souring economy, men
and their children, girlfriends and wives passed up buying
more khaki and knit shirts - and Gap's sales fell, along
with those of many of its imitators. But now, Gap, which
has been steadily raising its percentage of women's and
girls' clothing, appears to be recovering.

Analysts are looking toward Father's Day, next Sunday, as a
test for the men's market.

Jennifer Black, a retail analyst at Wells Fargo Securities,
says that while dress shirts have long been typical
Father's Day gifts, she wonders what will happen this year.
"What about those digital cameras and DVD's?" she asked.
"There are so many boys' toys out there. Are people going
to buy shirts and ties this year?"

Today's Man filed for bankruptcy protection in March.
Another chain, Casual Male Big & Tall, just reported that
first-quarter sales at stores open at least a year, known
as same-store sales, were down 5 percent from the period a
year ago. And Men's Wearhouse, until recently a
hard-driving exception, reported a scant 1 percent
first-quarter gain in same-store sales in the United
States. In Canada, it had a decline of 8.7 percent.

"Men are bored; that's the bottom line," said Roger S.
Markfield, a co-chief executive of American Eagle
Outfitters, where the men's business has dragged down his
company's sales, as reflected in declines in same-store
sales. The company has been looking for three months for a
vice president to reinvent the men's line.

The agony of shopping isn't the only problem for men's-wear
retailers. Men are also saying they don't need any more
clothes, said Mr. Beemer, whose grouphas interviewed 4,000
shoppers since the beginning of the year. "Men are getting
more into home décor and definitely getting into buying
outdoor furniture and grills," he said.

The statistics from the National Retail Federation also
show a dip in sales at stores that sell strictly men's
clothes, to $9.9 billion last year from $10.8 billion,
unadjusted for inflation, in 2000.

"People want to know if men are ever going to shop again,"
Ms. Black, the analyst, said. "You'd think pants would be
wearing out. A few pockets of the industry are doing O.K.,
but it's pretty dismal out there."

The women's clothing market has been helped by drastic
sales and coupons, Ms. Black said. "But how many guys are
into coupons?"

Apparently, not that many. At Abercrombie & Fitch, a drop
in the men's business more than offset healthy sales of
women's clothing, resulting in a 6 percent decline in
same-store sales for the first quarter.

At Tommy Hilfiger, men's-wear sales last year dropped 11.7
percent. At Nautica, executives warned of the continued
difficulty facing the men's collection for 2004. And at
Federated Department Stores, which owns Macy's and
Bloomingdale's, the chief executive, Terry J. Lundgren,
said in an interview that selling men's clothes was
"challenging" these days.

Men's wear is a brutal business, said Marc Cooper, who
covers the clothing industry at Peter J. Solomon, the
investment banker.

"The man in the household is the last clothing buyer on the
totem," Mr. Cooper said. "The men's business started dying
three or four years ago. I don't see it coming back."

But others see a change for the better. Michael Gould, the
chief executive of Bloomingdale's, said that its men's-wear
sales were up in the last two months. Mr. Cohen of NPD said
that for the year ended in March, men's-wear sales over
all, including department stores and other outlets, were
$51.5 billion, up 1.1 percent from the previous year.
Although an improvement, the most current total is still
down 10 percent from $57.4 billion in 1999. (Mr. Cohen
cautioned that there has been a change in the way NPD
collects data - from diaries sent through the regular mail
to e-mail responses.)

Pacific Sunwear is one of the big winners in young fashion,
and its "Surfer Joe" look has recently been copied by
bigger names, like Tommy Hilfiger. But part of its success,
said its chief executive, Greg H. Weaver, has resulted from
its quiet change in emphasis from men to women. This year,
the company is aiming for 50 percent women's wear, Mr.
Weaver said on Friday.

At the high end, Barneys New York has also shifted to where
the money is. Its offerings, once all men's wear, are now
65 percent women's wear. "We already have a very
well-established men's market," a spokeswoman for Barneys
said. "We just have more opportunity to grow the women's."

The remaining male shoppers continue to move downstream,
to places like Kohl's, said Mr. Cooper of Peter J. Solomon.
But he said he thought that economic uncertainty was still
a factor.

Stephen Gutman, the president of Beau Brummel, once one of
the hippest men's shops in Manhattan, agreed. Last week,
his shop, on Broadway between Prince and Spring Streets,
was full of shirts at 40 percent off, and its windows were
plastered with store-closing signs.

"The men's clothing business has been hit hard," Mr.
Guttman said. "There hasn't been a real trend, something
men just have to have. They're also confused: `Should we
buy suits, or should we buy more khakis?' " He shook his
head. "Most of us have enough khakis," he said.

Clearly, for most retailers, the problem is getting men
back into the shops - especially into the department
stores.

"I never shop in department stores anymore," said Robert M.
Kneeland, 58, who lives in Sandisfield, Mass., and is a
fly-fishing guide in the Berkshires. "Why would I?" When he
shops, he goes to the upscale sporting goods store Orvis -
but he hasn't bought anything new there in years. "I just
took them my old Barbour coat," he said. `'They're mending
it and rewaxing it for me."

Lawrence Sicular, a real estate appraiser in Manhattan,
said he prides himself on being reasonably well dressed.
Still, "clothes don't matter to me as much as they used
to," he said.

"The clothes are less exciting now - too trendy, not classy
enough," he added. "Brooks Brothers used to have wonderful
classic clothing, but the last time I was there, it was all
too hip."

Mr. Sicular, 49, still shops, but he doesn't buy much.
"Occasionally, I get a really good deal at a discounter,"
he said. "I'm wearing a Loro Piana suit I got in a
discounter on 86th Street for $325. I'm not willing to
spend retail."

Others, like Joseph Galvin, a high-school mathematics
teacher from North Scituate, R.I., say they don't shop at
all. Some are confused: Should they be wearing suits,
sports jackets or polo shirts to work? In any case, they
say they probably don't need to buy anything: their closets
still contain their old suits, which haven't gone out of
style, and lots of chinos they bought when everyone was
wearing them to work.

STILL others say that in an uncertain economy, it's women
and children first. "And there's no service - I like
somebody to explain to me what tie goes with what shirt,
and what pants," said Gregg Clark, a retail consultant in
Manhattan. "The department stores have lost their
conception of service."

Jos. A. Banks, which traditionally has sold moderately
priced clothing, has been known as an exception in the
dispiriting men's clothing business. Part of the reason is
its introduction of a heavy-duty service program, including
writing thank-you notes to every client, said the chief
executive, Robert N. Wildrick. The chain has also
introduced a coordinated dressing plan that includes
higher-priced merchandise. The sales staff takes pains to
construct entire outfits: shirt, tie, pants and jacket from
a range of "good, better and best" lines.

Some people, however, say that any rebound in the men's
market will have nothing to do with merchandising
strategies.

Mr. Cohen said because the American male is growing fatter
every year, the men's clothing market may end up like the
children's market. "Children outgrow their clothes every
six months," he said. "But I read that men are outgrowing
their clothes every three years. And guess what - men's
clothing sales have been dropping for three years, at
least."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/08/busin ... 98c80c4058

---------------------------------
Ugly Bear

Re: Men's Wear Depts.

Post by Ugly Bear »

So why have two clothing departments?
Were I to hazard a guess, I'd say there are two departments so people can more easily find the clothes they want.

The gender division in clothing has been a constant with very few exceptions. The exceptions that have occurred (like in Mao's China) have had nothing to do with fashion freedom and are hardly the sort of thing the fashion freedom folks desire.

Besides, if you shop in both departments anyway, why care that there are two departments?

David
Nigel

Re: men in women's jeans

Post by Nigel »

Bought some womans jeans from Gap on Saturday 'Long and Lean'. Tried them on downstairs in the blokes dept, and the chap who served me said that they had been selling alot of this style to men. My comment was that they fitted better around the @rse, and it seems that that is the same comment they have received from others. If they note a demand by men for this style while its in the womenswear section, I imagine they would sell a whole load more if they put them in the menswear section. Hopefully some feedback will get back to gap HQ.

Nigel
Elijah

Re: Men's Wear Depts. - Shrinking, even dissapeari

Post by Elijah »

I've got to get some dress shirts to go with my kilts. I'll have to remember to visit Men's Warehouse to get them.
Christian and Kilted
Dan R

The new menswear trend is in the works

Post by Dan R »

"...the men's clothing business has been
slumping for years, ever since men's-wear merchants ran out
of new trends for the casual clothes that replaced the suit
as the male default outfit.

After the suit died, American men loaded up on chinos and
polo shirts - and made Gap's stock soar. But three years
ago, with no clear fashion trend and a souring economy, men
and their children, girlfriends and wives passed up buying
more khaki and knit shirts..."


...which all explains one of the major reasons I decided to go into business creating my interpretation of menswear. Thanks for the validation, Kevin!

BTW: I've been out of action yesterday and probably for most of today due to my screaming back pain (and resultant fuzzy intellect from heavy-duty pain killers) but I do have my second prototype men's skirt completed. More details tomorrow. (It's really, really frustrating to get sidelined like this but I have no choice. )

Dan R
The CitySkirt Company
Dan R

Re: Men's Wear Depts.

Post by Dan R »

You'll find that pattern to be an educational experience, Dennis. It was my first project at about the same time I started my fashion design program at school. If I'm anything like you, you'll find that the pattern is a little on the plain side and will require some embellishments to make it interesting and crisper to look at when you wear it. (I ended up making the pleats into knife pleats just so they'd stay sharper during the day. I also added belt loops for my wide black leather belt.)

Regarding menswear departments, the trend I've been witnessing is two-part:
First, what the fashion industry at the retail level has been foisting off on us men for so long is and has been (at least for me) not only uncomfortable but downright boring. Yes, the construction is acceptable and often first-rate if you pay the price. But, for Pete's sake, how many polo shirts or khaki slacks does one man need? My weight has been steady for years and years so I've had the same six pairs of khaki cotton slacks for quite some time and they're all still quite wearable. (Yes, I do wear pants from time to time. )

Second, men purchase clothing to last more than one "season" as opposed to how clothes/fashion are marketed to women who are expected to wear a piece for just one season and then cast it off to charity shops or consignment stores. (One reason women's clothes are made with such poor quality construction.) Honestly, how many of you reading this post actually don't expect a shirt you purchase to last beyond four or five months in your seasonal clothing rotation? (Summer clothes or Autumn clothes, etc.) Right, you expect a shirt (or pants or men's skirt...hint, hint...) to last until the fabric is threadbare and you can see daylight through it when you hold it up to the sky.

In conclusion: I'm not surprised that traditional/conservative menswear is having a hard time in contrast to women's clothing lines. One of the courses I have on my schedule this quarter (which started today) is called Fashion Trends and Forecasting which should provide me (and by proxy, all of you) with a few insights into how fashions cycle and repeat themselves every N years. Stay tuned to Tom's Café for more interesting morsels.

Dan R
The CitySkirt Company
DAvery

Re: men in women's jeans

Post by DAvery »

What a visionary!

When I have to wear pants, all of them were purchased from the women's section. Great variety. Terrific fit. The same with shirts. A women's XL size fits better than any of the available men's sizes. Maybe I am an example of why the men's market is disappearing. Could be. It all started with kilts that simply are not available except in the women's department. I own over 100 kilts mostly of knee length to upper thigh length. Many fabrics. Many color combinations. Mostly without pleats. From two to eight pockets. Zippers on the right side. Just try to find any variety like that in the men's section!

So let the men's department disappear and see if I really give a damn one way or the other!

Dave
MtnBiker

Re: Men's Wear Depts.

Post by MtnBiker »

There is a ladies store called Chicos. My wife loves to wear their clothes, as does my best friend. They seem well made -- my wife still wears clothes from there that are at least 7 years old. The clothes are very exciting and vibrant and comfortable yet at the same time have (for the most) a large amount of 'classic' -- those 7 year old clothes still looks just as 'in-style'.

Every time that I go in there with her, or even when she gets a catalog, I get aggravated that there is not a men's version of that store. If there were a store that sold similar stuff for men I'd be a stylish dresser, but there is nothing like it.

Maybe Dan R's company could end up like that?

Note to Dan R -- think about selling (if not making) shirts, socks, jackets, etc that go with the skirts you are making. Or at least provide links to specific items on other sites that would look good. Maybe set up an affiliate type program with these other places, giving you a comission on the referrals?
Dan R

Re: Men's Wear Depts.

Post by Dan R »

: Maybe Dan R's company could end up like that?
Note to Dan R -- think about selling (if not making) shirts, socks, jackets, etc that go with the skirts you are making. Or at least provide links to specific items on other sites that would look good. Maybe set up an affiliate type program with these other places, giving you a comission on the referrals?
That's all in the works: shirts, jackets (but no socks, curiously enough) and accessories will be a part of the CitySkirt product offerings. Been reading my mind, MB? (Cluttered in there, isn't it? ) There will be belts and shoes/boots once I get the entire product line filled out.

I'm working on some shirt designs now; bending and twisting the conventional notion of "shirt" a little...generally having a great deal of fun while looking at what works and doesn't. There will be CitySkirt shirts and my take on neckties (which will be a surprise) along with jackets before the business suit line comes out early next year. It will all work with my men's skirts and even some pants (!!) you may have in your wardrobe.

Seriously though, I'm glad to get more encouragement; It's been a rather discouraging day. Thanks so much!

Dan R
MtnBiker

Re: Men's Wear Depts.

Post by MtnBiker »

Well that all sounds just fantastic!
Is your second prototype ready?
I hope this all goes quickly -- I am planning on wearing my Kinloch Anderson kilt to my wife's work Christmas party this year, but if you had a cool, dressy, skirt-proper I'd certainly consider that.

Are any 'man-dresses' in the works? To me, a waist band is just as uncomfortable as an inseam.
Dan R

Re: Men's Wear Depts.

Post by Dan R »

Well that all sounds just fantastic! Is your second prototype ready? I hope this all goes quickly -- I am planning on wearing my Kinloch Anderson kilt to my wife's work Christmas party this year, but if you had a cool, dressy, skirt-proper I'd certainly consider that. Are any 'man-dresses' in the works? To me, a waist band is just as uncomfortable as an inseam.
The second prototype (the Ballard) is complete. Alas, I've been in so much excruciating back pain, I haven't had the physical ability to fire up the digital camera. I wore my first Ballard to classes on Tuesday. While it's in denim, I think a version in black twill might be what you're after.

MB, you make a very interesting point there; I'd been toying with the idea of a man's dress (although the garment name may evolve in my hands). Waist bands can be uncomfortable for a number of people. Stay tuned.

As far as a skirt proper, please e-mail me at danr@cityskirt.com. We'll do some brainstorming and see if we can get you set up with something more formal than the casual skirts I'm working on right now.

Dan R
The CitySkirt Company
Yonkas
Distinguished Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:28 am
Location: Buffalo, NY
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Post by Yonkas »

Dan R wrote:
...which all explains one of the major reasons I decided to go into business creating my interpretation of menswear. Thanks for the validation, Kevin!

How exactly does one go about starting such a business, actually? I imagine it would take alot of capital, and even then. I'm saying this because I'm actually considering doing such a thing. I have alot of designs in my head and would love to contribute them to breath life back into men's clothing.

Right now, unfortunately, I'm a poor post-college student still trying to find a career (which looks like Grad school at this point).
skirttron
Member Extraordinaire
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:39 pm

Post by skirttron »

It's not all gloom, though. In the UK, some branches of New Look and Monsoon have started selling men's clothes, and better branches of Accessorize have a men's rack if you look hard enough. I had fun shopping in one such branch of New Look in my kilt.
Let's face it, guys, the main problem with men's clothes is that they are boring, and they are boring because they are utilitarian and only come in a narrow range of styles. We like to show off a bit, but we can't do that with clothes because we have inherited the Puritan tradition of sartorial modesty that is shared by most big-time religions, but have decided for now to apply the rules to men only.
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