Made it easier?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
pelmut
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by pelmut »

Mark as in Mark wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:46 pm Do you think the LGBT+ community has made it easier for us to wear skirts?
or....Do you think the LGBT+ community has made it harder because of the fear of being seen as gay when out wearing a skirt?
I don't know of any LGBT+ community, just a large number of diverse individuals who get lumped together by the media when they have occasion to protest against iniquitous lies put about by those same media.  

If you replace "the LGBT+ community" with "the current media focus on LGBT+" my answer would be that it has made it easier for men to wear skirts in public, but more difficult for them to avoid being incorrectly assumed to be BGT+ (but not 'L') because of it.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by steamman »

I take the view that the LGBT community has carved a path for us, and I frankly couldn’t care less what label anyone assumes I am when I am out and about in a skirt or a dress and heels.

Fundamentally, this is all about anyone being able to live their life freely the way they want to (within the law) without fear. That’s it. No matter whether you are straight or LGBT, that’s the common aim. It’s getting better. Attitudes are slowly changing.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by Offkilter69 »

steamman wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 1:55 pm
Fundamentally, this is all about anyone being able to live their life freely the way they want to (within the law) without fear. That’s it. No matter whether you are straight or LGBT, that’s the common aim. It’s getting better. Attitudes are slowly changing.
I agree that it’s really about diversity and inclusion awareness— that’s what helps the MIS movement. Unfortunately there is quite a bit of sexual identity and sexuality preconceived notions out there about men who wear skirts, my SO included. She has long thought that any man who wears skirts or dresses must be gay or transgender. She was confused by the fact that Harry Styles is not gay despite often wearing rather feminine attire, including his famous Vogue cover photo with him wearing a frilly dress.

It took a long time for me to gather the courage to wear kilts around her and my similar thinking teenage daughters. Now I wear them with regularity, both at home and in public. My gals remain not fans of it, but are at least accepting for the most part. There are also double standards. My daughters’ K-Pop idols can look quite feminine and still be considered “hot”, but dad is weird for wearing kilts. Hopefully time and maturity will bring more acceptance. My SO’s son and daughter also came out fairly recently as bisexual and gay, respectively, which perhaps has created a greater awareness and acceptance of changes in cultural norms in her mind. She is supportive of who they are. Hopefully she will remain the same for me if I start wearing skirts in addition to manskirt kilts.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by ScotL »

I think the trans movement absolutely helped the men who want to wear skirts as men movement.

Mark, you’ve been labeled a pioneer of cis, heterosexual men dressing in women’s clothing. Your story has helped me so first, let me thank you for having the courage to just be you.

But the interviewer stating you should be doing more for LGBTQ+ issues is misguided and shows ignorance on the interviewers behalf. You have been remarkably clear that you are cis and heterosexual. There is nothing about what you’re doing that shows you should be actively advocating for LGBTQ+ issues outside of the universal truth that we should all be nice to each other.

Elton John got a lot of flack for not doing more for the gay community. But he’s gay. No one should be forced to do something they don’t want to but at least in his case, he’s gay. So he at least has a dog in the fight.

But to the question you asked. Did the LGBTQ+ community help us. Yes. Unequivocally in my mind.

In the beginning, society considered people male and female and only opposites attract. And society also regarded clothing as a gendered construct separated in a binary fashion as male and female. Even when women started wearing pants, by necessity they started as mens pants but quickly devolved into women’s pants. Again, a gendered clothing. And what we must understand, is this societal norm of binary rules that apply to men or women has ruled unquestioned.

Sure, there were a few who were “different” but they were ostracized due to not following these rigid rules that most of society hangs their proverbial hat on.

Along comes the LGBTQ+ community to break the rigidity of these rules. Now society is forced to consider that there’s more to life than the binary men and women and that only men and women attract. And this brings about the idea of non-binary that further opens the doors to the naive simplicity with which society considered the world.

And it is this breaking of the rigid societal rules where the LGBTQ+ community has helped us.

Many complain that MIS are mislabeled as gay or trans. To suggest society won’t jump to illogical conclusions is fallacy.

Wearing a skirt has nothing to do with one’s sexual orientation and honestly, I’ve not run into regular gay guys who wear a skirt nor have I seen them really on TV. Billy Porter sure but aren’t there so many more cis heterosexual guys wearing skirts of late? Isn’t that the complaint Mr Porter made? That heteros get all the press when he was one of the first?

The trans movement is of course blurring the lines of why you wear a skirt. And as much as trans women do not want to be confused with the MIS thought of “I’m just wearing a skirt as a guy”, MIS guys don’t want to be thought of as the trans female “I am actually a woman”.

Both groups want to “wear the skirt” but both groups have far differing reasons for it. Comfort versus identity.

And as much as I can already hear the replies to this about how they don’t want to be mistaken for a trans female wannabe, this question of your motives for wearing a skirt has ALWAYS been there. Regardless of the trans movement.

A man puts on a skirt and he used to be thought of as a cross dressing transvestite ie one who wears the clothing of the opposite gender for sexual fetish. The trans movement has just added one more possible mistaken identity. We just need to add one more: some men like to wear skirts for comfort and are not trans or transvestites.

The way the trans movement has helped us is it has added one more reason for a man to wear a skirt where “normal”
Society thought there was only one reason. Once that myopic view of why a man would wear a skirt was enlarged to include trans, it’s now easier to enlarge it further to include MIS.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by ScotL »

Offkilter69 wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 3:40 pm
steamman wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 1:55 pm
Fundamentally, this is all about anyone being able to live their life freely the way they want to (within the law) without fear. That’s it. No matter whether you are straight or LGBT, that’s the common aim. It’s getting better. Attitudes are slowly changing.
I agree that it’s really about diversity and inclusion awareness— that’s what helps the MIS movement. Unfortunately there is quite a bit of sexual identity and sexuality preconceived notions out there about men who wear skirts, my SO included. She has long thought that any man who wears skirts or dresses must be gay or transgender. She was confused by the fact that Harry Styles is not gay despite often wearing rather feminine attire, including his famous Vogue cover photo with him wearing a frilly dress.

It took a long time for me to gather the courage to wear kilts around her and my similar thinking teenage daughters. Now I wear them with regularity, both at home and in public. My gals remain not fans of it, but are at least accepting for the most part. There are also double standards. My daughters’ K-Pop idols can look quite feminine and still be considered “hot”, but dad is weird for wearing kilts. Hopefully time and maturity will bring more acceptance. My SO’s son and daughter also came out fairly recently as bisexual and gay, respectively, which perhaps has created a greater awareness and acceptance of changes in cultural norms in her mind. She is supportive of who they are. Hopefully she will remain the same for me if I start wearing skirts in addition to manskirt kilts.
I think one of the problems we MIS folks have is we see the duplicity in others about what they think is cool on others but not on us and we call foul.

But in reality, the fact that you can point out this duplicity is helpful if done right. This is a marked shift in one’s thought process because the gender norms are tied into the intimate parts of our being including sexuality. And that makes everyone uncomfortable. But I think, if you point out the duplicity in a loving way, wait without getting mad, they’ll come around in their own time
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Re: Made it easier?

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ScotL wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:15 pmI think one of the problems we MIS folks have is we see the duplicity in others about what they think is cool on others but not on us and we call foul.

But in reality, the fact that you can point out this duplicity is helpful if done right. This is a marked shift in one’s thought process because the gender norms are tied into the intimate parts of our being including sexuality. And that makes everyone uncomfortable. But I think, if you point out the duplicity in a loving way, wait without getting mad, they’ll come around in their own time.
That's well thought out, Scott, but it leaves one important component out of the equation, and we'd be being disingenuous if we ignored it -- emotion. If one is at all sensitive, and recall that guys can be even if they mask or hide it, those backhand demands of, "Conform, you pervert!" (to use the coarse translation of it for effect) hurt. And what's one of the entirely natural responses to getting hurt? One lashes out. Women do it all the time, usually with more cracks; guys need to be careful of it because we're slightly more likely to lash out physically because we're not necessarily well-trained in psychological warfare the way women are. Note, too, that the one making the crack may not be aware of precisely whet they're implying with their words, thus requiring a daft response.

So, yes, patience can work, but women really hate being quoted back to (they remember their words, too) and "corrected". Frequently, this winds up in an ever-growing snowball rolling quickly downhill and an argument or, worse, a fight. My late ex- frequently deployed psy-ops (Psychological (warfare) Operations) against me and my word the outright lasting emotional damage that did to me was astonishing -- some of which will remain with me until I kick off this miserable rock.

I'm not sure whether there's a "correct" answer to this or not. Simply sucking it up and trying to ignore the hurt isn't a sustainable situation, but then again calling it out has terrible pitfalls as well. And to be quite honest, this is the first time I've actually taken a look at the phenomenon because up to this point I'd merely sucked it up and kept my mouth shut.
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Re: Made it easier?

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crfriend wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:02 pm
ScotL wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:15 pmI think one of the problems we MIS folks have is we see the duplicity in others about what they think is cool on others but not on us and we call foul.

But in reality, the fact that you can point out this duplicity is helpful if done right. This is a marked shift in one’s thought process because the gender norms are tied into the intimate parts of our being including sexuality. And that makes everyone uncomfortable. But I think, if you point out the duplicity in a loving way, wait without getting mad, they’ll come around in their own time.
That's well thought out, Scott, but it leaves one important component out of the equation, and we'd be being disingenuous if we ignored it -- emotion. If one is at all sensitive, and recall that guys can be even if they mask or hide it, those backhand demands of, "Conform, you pervert!" (to use the coarse translation of it for effect) hurt. And what's one of the entirely natural responses to getting hurt? One lashes out. Women do it all the time, usually with more cracks; guys need to be careful of it because we're slightly more likely to lash out physically because we're not necessarily well-trained in psychological warfare the way women are. Note, too, that the one making the crack may not be aware of precisely whet they're implying with their words, thus requiring a daft response.

So, yes, patience can work, but women really hate being quoted back to (they remember their words, too) and "corrected". Frequently, this winds up in an ever-growing snowball rolling quickly downhill and an argument or, worse, a fight. My late ex- frequently deployed psy-ops (Psychological (warfare) Operations) against me and my word the outright lasting emotional damage that did to me was astonishing -- some of which will remain with me until I kick off this miserable rock.

I'm not sure whether there's a "correct" answer to this or not. Simply sucking it up and trying to ignore the hurt isn't a sustainable situation, but then again calling it out has terrible pitfalls as well. And to be quite honest, this is the first time I've actually taken a look at the phenomenon because up to this point I'd merely sucked it up and kept my mouth shut.
I didn’t leave out emotion, emotion is the root of all the problems. If we were rational and left out emotion, we’d let anyone wear whatever they want. But with emotion, we suddenly feel the need to conform or discuss others clothing choices.
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Re: Made it easier?

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ScotL wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:15 pmI didn’t leave out emotion, emotion is the root of all the problems. If we were rational and left out emotion, we’d let anyone wear whatever they want. But with emotion, we suddenly feel the need to conform or discuss others clothing choices.
The issue here is that we cannot escape emotions -- whether we're men or women. Both have emotions, and they need to be taken into account. That simply cannot be swept under the rug. We can no more deny emotion than evolution.
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Re: Made it easier?

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crfriend wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:21 pm
ScotL wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:15 pmI didn’t leave out emotion, emotion is the root of all the problems. If we were rational and left out emotion, we’d let anyone wear whatever they want. But with emotion, we suddenly feel the need to conform or discuss others clothing choices.
The issue there is that we cannot escape emotions -- whether we're men or women. Both have emotions, and they need to be taken into account. That simply cannot be swept under the rug. We can no more deny emotion than evolution.
Couldn’t agree more. The entire reason I feel we point out duplicity in a loving way to allow them to deal with their emotions as they need to. The moment you force another to deal with their emotions before they’re ready, you lose.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by Coder »

https://www.queerty.com/heel-clad-heter ... s-20221104

Ignoring the “who”, I always find it ironic when one group claims some sort of fashion for themselves. One time I was chastised by classmates for having a particular style of sneaker because only “skaters were allowed to wear that”.

Seeing the video, I think it’s very presumptuous of the queer community (assuming the interviewer represents said community) to be so gate-keepery over fashion. I guess I just lack perspective? I’ve always had/believed two conflicting thoughts:

1) people will think I’m gay if I wear a skirt
2) gay males will not want to date a guy wearing a skirt because they want to date a man, not a woman
2b) wearing a skirt doesn’t make me a woman, but it certainly will confuse other people

Then my thoughts go back to “who put these ideas into my mind” and I’m left with television and movies and how they portrayed certain people.

But ultimately, your sexuality is your sexuality - and they would take just as much offense at being called straight as you would the opposite. Since people don’t talk with one another anymore and only snipe on Twitter, it’s very difficult to have a conversation where we freely express our beliefs, agree to disagree or learn from the other side. It’s always a zero-sum game for the world, and that’s a shame.
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Re: Made it easier?

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Mark as in Mark wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 3:46 pm

He(she) asked me why i don't support the LGBT+ community more. My reply was that I don't think I fit into that community because what I wear has nothing to do with sexuality. He(she) then said that since the LGBT+ community, trans in particular, have suffered threats, abuse, and even death, so that I can wear skirts more freely I should be up on my soapbox screaming my support!

Questions?

Do you think the LGBT+ community has made it easier for us to wear skirts?

or....Do you think the LGBT+ community has made it harder because of the fear of being seen as gay when out wearing a skirt?
Well, it was the increased awareness and activism of the LGBT movement that finally moved the needle on getting anti-crossdressing laws repealed, or at least unenforced, but on the other hand, I think the activism of the LGBT community over the last decade (particularly of transgender women) has resulted in a massive right wing pushback and a cry to return to "traditional family values" and I can see those "anti-crossdressing" laws making a comeback in the not so distant future...

So maybe both answers are correct.

By the way, it's kind to simply refer to transgender women with the "she" pronoun if that's what she wants. Over here in the states "he-she" is considered very derogatory.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by familyman34 »

ScotL wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:07 pm I think the trans movement absolutely helped the men who want to wear skirts as men movement.

....

But to the question you asked. Did the LGBTQ+ community help us. Yes. Unequivocally in my mind.
There's an article from Vice.com in September 2021 that picks up on this point.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/xgx9gq/ ... id-fashion
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by moonshadow »

Coder wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:02 pm Agree with the previous posters. Only thing I'd like to add - that the transgender movement has unfortunately reinforced the gender binary - stepping out of your lane (man wearing a skirt, woman playing with LEGO*) - immediately makes you question your nature, and that's a shame.
I don't think most people vex over the little things like playing with Legos. Sure there are occasional "one offs", but they are very few and far between.

As for transgender reinforcing the binary, most people that I actually know here in "meat space" who are not exactly "cis-gender" consider themselves non-binary. In fact it seems the most popular pronoun among non-binary people are "they/them" and I know I see that a lot both online and off, especially among [biological] females.

Non-binary cast a very large net of people who are neither this nor that. And for many gender is a complicated matter of the inner workings of how their minds and souls are wired up.

I realize most people here are not in any way shape or form anything other than cis-gender men who like skirts, and I'm sorry that the trans and non-binary community is causing such a stir among those here, but my advice here is to just let it go.... I mean, I totally understand politely correcting people that may assume you're trans, but the vibe I'm getting here is many members are getting sore and upset about it. Let it go man...

You can wear what you want... why not just leave it at that? If you're that worried about what people are saying or thinking, then why wear a skirt to begin with? Just dress normal and people will assume you're normal.

If you're not trans.. you're not trans. You know what you are.

I've got people from all walks of life telling me what I am and am not, I've got people insisting I'm not trans, I've got just as many insisting I am... it's like everybody wants to write my story for me.

No... I don't accept that.. I am what I am. You are what you are. Those are the facts.
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Re: Made it easier?

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moonshadow wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:41 pmNon-binary cast a very large net of people who are neither this nor that. And for many gender is a complicated matter of the inner workings of how their minds and souls are wired up.
I think the current popularity of "non-binary" (whatever that means this week) [0] may largely be down to the disgusting current "choice" of stereotypes that we're expected to conform to. Face it, who really wants to be a "toxic" "Marlboro man", or a "bimbo"? The stereotypes need to return to the way actual humans are, not the notional "types" portrayed by propaganda and the media.



[0] In computing hardware, "non-binary" represents a fatal fault condition is the components that make up a computer. These faults normally manifest as a "floating" condition where a signal is neither a proper ground or a proper voltage; it's in the middle, with TTL usually at about 2 volts not a proper 0 (ground) or +3.
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Re: Made it easier?

Post by new2skirts »

crfriend wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:15 pm
moonshadow wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:41 pmNon-binary cast a very large net of people who are neither this nor that. And for many gender is a complicated matter of the inner workings of how their minds and souls are wired up.
I think the current popularity of "non-binary" (whatever that means this week) [0] may largely be down to the disgusting current "choice" of stereotypes that we're expected to conform to. Face it, who really wants to be a "toxic" "Marlboro man", or a "bimbo"? The stereotypes need to return to the way actual humans are, not the notional "types" portrayed by propaganda and the media.



[0] In computing hardware, "non-binary" represents a fatal fault condition is the components that make up a computer. These faults normally manifest as a "floating" condition where a signal is neither a proper ground or a proper voltage; it's in the middle, with TTL usually at about 2 volts not a proper 0 (ground) or +3.
Most people today aren't properly earthed :lol: but we will never find a common GND (ground) , but I think younger generations are dispensing with this and doing whatever they feel like, who would have thought Adidas would sell a decent men's skirt at a resasonable price? Would never have happened 10 years ago.

Whatever labels some use, it's good to see MIS (of sorts) even if celebrities at this stage, plus hundreds on other platforms like Instagram 8)
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