How many is enough to normalise us?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby skirtyscot » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:22 am

This post on another thread:

KellyRain wrote:
I didn't see skirts on men other than cross dressing in that same time frame. I've been here since 2000. Early on I'd see the occasional goth or visual kei guy in a skirt. But recently I am seeing them fairly frequently. Still we are talking about 1-5 or so guys in a shopping area with a 100,000 people passing through. Omotesando on a Saturday now is insane compared to years past. In addition to the locals shopping there are massive groups of Chinese tourist shoppers and a lot more international people too. Still tiny numbers of men in skirts.


got me thinking - how many skirted men will it take to make us unremarkable? "Normal" is a bit much to ask for, but it would be nice if we could get to the point where a passing stranger would think nothing of seeing one of us. For example, here in Scotland a kilt is a non-event. You don't see a kilt every day or even every week. But kilties don't turn heads or get funny looks. How many of us have to be out there so that the betrousered masses notice but it hardly registers with them because we're normal enough? So that two people out shopping together would hardly even comment to each other on seeing us?
Keep on skirting,

Alastair
skirtyscot
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:44 pm
Location: West Kilbride, Ayrshire, Scotland

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby crfriend » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:48 am

skirtyscot wrote:[... H]ow many skirted men will it take to make us unremarkable? "Normal" is a bit much to ask for, but it would be nice if we could get to the point where a passing stranger would think nothing of seeing one of us.

An off-the-cuff guess might be one or two per town -- especially if they're highly visible (e.g. participating in local politics or in other public-facing situations). My old town was pretty habituated to me and my skirts when I was still living there, so I suspect that'd be a "soft target". I'm known well enough in my new town, or at least in my various haunts, that it never causes a stir -- only the occasional conversation or compliment.

I really think that the "on-the-ground density" could be quite low to get the ball rolling. We're not there yet, but hopefully in a few years' time if society doesn't change around us to harden to a point where it's dangerous. We shall see, or at least some of us will. Personally, I'm hopeful, but not optimistic. There remain quite a few obstacles in the way of acceptance and uptake here, not least of which is the confusion that surrounds trans-* which straight guys will avoid like the plague.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10234
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby dillon » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:50 am

We think less and less of seeing same-sex couples now, and in the US 4.5% of the population identifies as LGBTQ (which likely means the true portion is maybe twice that) so I’d speculate that observing 1% of men wearing skirts would be adequate to normalize it for many people. Of course there will always be haters. African-Americans are about 20% of our population and there are still racists around raising their ugly heads, so the threshold varies by predisposition to tolerance.
As a matter of fact, the sun DOES shine out of my ...
dillon
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 2448
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:12 pm
Location: southeast NC coast

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:03 am

As far as I know, I think I'm the only one for hundreds of miles. Some pass through on trail days in Damascus, But that's a special circumstance. I've never seen another local man in my region who dresses like I do.

I've only seen one transgender woman and even she was wearing pants.

Guess I'm just "special"

I'd say we're probably literally around one in a million. Yes, that means I'd estimate there might be 328 of us (non trans, non kilt wearing, freestyling skirt wearing men) on average in the U.S.

I do not count the bravehearts in this estimate.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."
-Alejandro Jodorowsky
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3993
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby denimini » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:29 am

Perhaps 1 in 1000 to be unremarkable and 1 in 100 to be considered normal.

I think we are sometimes accepted as unremarkable because we are lumped into "that's different" and there are 100's of other different things one sees; vast tattooing, multiple piercings, missing limbs, grosse saggers, etc.

Who wants to be normal?
Anthony, a denim miniskirt wearer in Outback Australia
User avatar
denimini
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1375
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:50 am
Location: Outback Australia

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby STEVIE » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:52 am

Hi SS,
I reckon that it may be a case of how often just as much as how many to get “Joe Public” accustomed to a guy in a skirt.
Up here, I have been around the city centre on a regular enough basis that I have just become another part of the background.
I have also visited enough shops, pubs and other establishments that any other skirted guy would likely be less than a novelty.
The only flaw in this is that Aberdeen has still got a village mentality for the size of the place.
Steve,
STEVIE
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:01 pm
Location: North East Scotland.

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Stu » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:48 am

Look out for certain indicators that it has become normalised.

1. Mainstream, not just high-fashion, shops sell skirts for men as permanent lines. In the UK, that might be Marks and Spencer; in the US, J C Penney or Macy's.

2. Men wearing skirts are seen in TV dramas, soaps, sitcoms and it's not an issue or treated as being unremarkable

3. Handed down items from older siblings and cousins - it becomes as natural to hand down a simple pinafore or skirt to a younger boy as it would be to a girl.

We are not there yet, gentlemen.
Stu
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 8:25 am
Location: Sweden

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Jim » Sat Feb 02, 2019 12:35 pm

moonshadow wrote:
I'd say we're probably literally around one in a million. Yes, that means I'd estimate there might be 328 of us (non trans, non kilt wearing, freestyling skirt wearing men) on average in the U.S.


Over 1200 Skirt Cafe users, over half from US. If 10% of "us" US skirt wearers are part of Skirt Cafe, we could estimate 6000 in the US. I expect there are 10 times as many as that.
User avatar
Jim
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:39 am

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby rivegauche » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:34 pm

It depends who is perceiving it as normal. I have several times wandered round Aberdeen in a skirt (as a man) without getting a reaction. Same with Edinburgh. I asked the SA in LTS in Aberdeen (now sadly closed) how often they got me trying on clothes and she said men trying on clothes was a normal part of a normal day. Kilts are routine - men who work in hotels or deal with tourists often wear them, so do pipers, soldiers, and men at weddings. Just for curiosity I counted the number of male kilts I saw in Inverness within half an hour - 6 - and only two of them were together. I think the more of us go out in the streets the easier it will be for someone to make the first move and wear one to work (I salute those who already do). Going out in the streets is easy after the first time. First time in any situation it is going to be scary wherever you do it. I suspect we already have the numbers to make it normal - we just have to be SEEN in those numbers.

The biggest leap forward would be if we got people to see past the gender thing. I think that is the real barrier. Too many people view a man in a skirt as a guy with gender issues - but then you all knew that - we just need society to know that a man in a skirt is just a man in a skirt.
Last edited by rivegauche on Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rivegauche
Active Member
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:04 pm

Jim wrote:
moonshadow wrote:
I'd say we're probably literally around one in a million. Yes, that means I'd estimate there might be 328 of us (non trans, non kilt wearing, freestyling skirt wearing men) on average in the U.S.


Over 1200 Skirt Cafe users, over half from US. If 10% of "us" US skirt wearers are part of Skirt Cafe, we could estimate 6000 in the US. I expect there are 10 times as many as that.


I just don't see it. Like you said, only half (600) are probably from the U.S. Out of that half, at least a quarter probably wear kilts only, out of the remainder, lets not forget those who have died, those who wore skirts for a while but stopped, and finally those who only wear skirts when nobody's looking (they don't count as they are doing nothing to "normalise" us). Then there are the bogus registrations, and there are probably a few real people who registered just because they want to read the site, but have no real interest wearing skirts. That brings us to just a shade over our active membership today. Of course, there are male skirt wearers in the U.S. who have never heard of skirt cafe, and I feel that number brings us back closer to my estimate.

Yeah, given my travels, and the fact that in all of the east coast states I've visited, I've NEVER seen a man casually wearing a skirt (save for Fred in South Carolina), I'd say that 6.56 men per state is a pretty reasonable guess. Mind you, that is just an average, some states may have zero, others may have higher than the average number.

The fact that we're never really mentioned in the media, never mentioned by the "grape vine", and the fact that those who comment to me also state I'm the first one they've ever seen adds to my hypothesis.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."
-Alejandro Jodorowsky
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3993
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:36 pm

Further, an estimate of 6,000 averages to about 120 per state. I feel that's pretty high. Virginia is a reasonably culturally diverse state all in all, and has 95 counties, that would average out to 1.26 per county. Tennessee has the same number, and North Carolina boast 100 for an average of 1.2 per.

Unless they're all hoarded up over in the Tidewater region... I highly doubt it man...

In fact, I'd say 6,000 is going to be a tough number if we ever reach it. That's about the right number before a movement starts to gain serious traction. Ten years from that point it's liable to become truly "mainstream".

The trouble is, once it becomes more noticeable, but not yet fully accepted (similar to homosexuality in the 1980's and early 90's) then your far right religious types are going to start petitioning for its prohibition. Expect anti-crossdressing laws to make a comeback. Hopefully there will be enough traction for all 6,000 of us to band together with other allies and overcome this...

That being said, as men are not known as the type of people who actually work well together.... well, I just don't know.

Personally I think we're fine enough to fly under the radar.
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."
-Alejandro Jodorowsky
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3993
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby crfriend » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:48 pm

Jim wrote:Over 1200 Skirt Cafe users, over half from US. If 10% of "us" US skirt wearers are part of Skirt Cafe, we could estimate 6000 in the US. I expect there are 10 times as many as that.

I'd use that 1,200 number very, very carefully as it's almost certainly quite high. I'm not trying to be discouraging here, but in reality our numbers are quite tiny. That said, I know of at least three and possibly four skirt-wearing men in Massachusetts alone.

At a guess, I'm thinking that there are at most about 100 folks who are active here. If there's sufficient interest I'll be happy to dig into the database and do some analysis of the traffic for the past several months.
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10234
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby moonshadow » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:27 pm

crfriend wrote:That said, I know of at least three and possibly four skirt-wearing men in Massachusetts alone.


Massachusetts is a geographically small, yet very populous state at 6.8 million. I still think my guestimate may hold water... roughly one in a million. Further, I'd expect many of the progressive states to boast a higher number, while likewise other, more traditional states and regions would have fewer.

Now I reiterate, I'm not including trans-women, those who only wear kilts, and closet skirt wearers. Only those who at least once in a while (maybe a few times per month at least) casually appear in public in a skirt (marketed towards women) while being a man.

In my region I have seen men wearing kilts (utilikilts) casually. Not often, but not unheard of either.

While I have no issue with kilt wearers (to each his own right?), they are still socially accepted mens wear and aren't really invoking anything taboo, like *gasp* wear a off the peg "womens" skirt.

Part of my "mission" with public skirt wearing, is to illustrate that men can indeed express elements of femininity and be a "guy" while doing so. This is not accomplished with a kilt, the kilt sends a completely different message. It says, "I'm a man, I'm cool and hip, I'm wearing something different and unique, but don't worry, I'm still playing by the rules".

Like a bank robber who won't park in the fire lane... because that would be illegal after all... :wink: :eye:
"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."
-Alejandro Jodorowsky
User avatar
moonshadow
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 3993
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:58 am
Location: Lebanon, Virginia

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby crfriend » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:15 pm

My curiosity got the best of me, so I put on my DBA goggles and peered into the database for some numbers to describe how many "active users" there are here in the community. It turns out that my supposition of "only a hundred or so" turned out to be slightly pessimistic (a "quality" of mine) and actually looks to be in the mid hundred and twenties.

How did I ascertain that number? Well, as they say, "SQL like a pig":
Code: Select all
SELECT u.username, count(p.post_id) FROM phpbb3_posts p JOIN phpbb3_users u ON u.user_id=p.poster_id
 WHERE p.post_time >= UNIX_TIMESTAMP(date_sub(now(), INTERVAL '6' month)) AND u.user_inactive_reason = 0
 GROUP BY p.poster_id ORDER BY 2 DESC;

The above returned 164 rows consisting of active user names and the number of posts from each in the last six months. There are 34 folks with more than 50 posts in that time-frame, and 24 with more than a hundred. I tended to omit users with fewer than 6 posts (1 per month) save for the guys I know are active.

So, there we go. I understand that the community here must be a subset of the actual skirt-wearing male population but have no reference-points to allow any sort of meaningful extrapolation of a potential number "in the wild".
Retrocomputing -- It's not just a job, it's an adventure!
User avatar
crfriend
Master Barista
 
Posts: 10234
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: New England (U.S.)

Re: How many is enough to normalise us?

Postby Dust » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:51 pm

Public perception and actual numbers are two different things. I'll give some examples that came to mind as I read the other comments here:

1. The gay community pushed the notion for a long time that they were 10% of the population. The statistic was bull****, but no one publicly questioned it. The actual numbers are thought to be in the 2-3% range. But they got in front of the camera and did a huge PR blitz for decades. They had help from Hollywood and made sure people heard about them ad nauseum. Pride parades and so on. It got a lot of pushback, but largely worked.

2. A city was feeling the need to increase their police presence, but didn't have the money to hire more officers or pay lots of overtime. What they did instead, was buy more cars. One painted, obvious police car was issued to every officer. They were instructed to take them home at the end of their shift, and use them for personal trips around the city, like going to the store, picking up their kids from school, etc. The city hired no new officers, but the public thought that the police presence had doubled.


Not sure how we can apply all this, other than emphasise getting out and being seen. There will be no help from Hollywood, no billion dollar PR campaign. We shouldn't lie about our numbers either. But we can wear skirts publicly more often, and not hide it from people we know.

My point here is, that numbers don't matter as much as you might think. It's a perception thing.
Dust
Member Extraordinaire
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Next

Return to Skirts and Kilts for Men

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron