Congress vs empowerment

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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moonshadow
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Congress vs empowerment

Post by moonshadow »

So, I've been making some interesting observations lately, and before I go any further, for those who don't know:

congress is sex. (look it up if you don't believe me)

So translated to modern terms, the title would read "sex vs empowerment"

This has to do with skirts, and one theory I am formulating as to why they are such a taboo for men.

There are actually two observations at play here:

1) I've noticed a very large increase in the number of younger women (in their 20's mostly) who are emulating men their age. They're cutting their hair VERY short, and in "boy styles". They are wearing long baggy shorts (not capris). They carry themselves and walk like men their age. I noticed one the other day working in one of the establishments I was servicing who looked downright boyish.

There is also another common denominator I've noticed amongst these modern day "tom boys", and that is they work their butt off. The outwork virtually ALL of the more "feminine" women, and a good share of the men in the same occupation. I suppose working like mule is something they consider to be "part of the territory" of "manliness". These boy like girls will probably do quite well in the "mans" world. They have emulated virtually every characteristic of manhood. Even their voice seems lower and has a more masculine accent.

It is clear to me, that to these girls, there is a certain empowerment that comes with manhood.

2) It is difficult to form an opinion of actual "real life" men who wear skirts (NOT crossdressers, trangender people, etc, just men like us), mainly because I appear to be the only one in the area. When I wonder about what people's problem is/was regarding my choice in dress, I believe it can be traced down to a stereotype of perversion.

To put it another way, the thinking may be among many that a man who chooses to wear a womens garment does so out of some desire to express a sexual fetish or fantasy. Men are not regarded as being capable of controlling our carnal desires, and to be fair, a good many men do seem to struggle in this department. Thus, the public at large may look upon someone like myself as a sexual pervert at best. Perhaps a pedophile at worst.

The online sampling I gather on sites like Flickr doesn't do much to steer my observation away from this ultimate conclusion. I frequently get "followers" and "faves" from random people, most are other men who may not have any photos on their feed, but their faves and groups listing is full of "tranny porn". For those who do have a few photos on their feed, commonly it's nothing but penis shots, leading into other "practices" that I'd rather not go into here....

Suffice it to say, the stereotype does seem to be somewhat warranted. As a matter of fact, skirtcafe, because of it's strict prohibition on discussion of underwear, makes this practically the only site where non-kilt wearing men can come together and not have a conversation turn to sexual fetishes.

Indeed, it seems for many men, dressing in women's clothes is about sex.

Conclusion:

Employer sees a young woman dressed like a young man and says "I've seen these girls before... they work their ass off, I think I'll hire her".

Employer sees a young man dressed like a young woman and thinks of the movie "psycho" and cringes as he can imagine as the man in the dress engages in all sorts of R rated activities while peeping through a little hole on the other side of the women's restroom.

Some may disagree with me on these thoughts, and I can respect that. And I'm NOT saying that this is indeed the FACTUAL CASE with guys like us. But I AM saying, this may be why we get so much flak from the public, family, etc.... We need not look any further than the "bathroom wars", and the fear mongering of "men in dresses" barging into little girls restrooms to grope on them. The fears were REAL, even if exaggerated.

How do we combat this social stigma?
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Mark as in Mark
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by Mark as in Mark »

Moonshawdow,

I cannot agree with you more. As an engineering manager I have hired a few women that have a lot of men tendencies. I have also hired a few "lady like" women. The women that are more lady like have jobs like documentation, clerical type positions such as releasing drawings to manufacturing, cost tracking, etc. The women with short hair, and more manly dressed, have positions such as designers, technicians, and engineers. And they work just as hard as the men in my department. I have had one feminine male in my department, he didn't dress feminine, but had openly confessed he was gay. This guy did nothing, talked on the phone all day, and was always putting others down. He acted like he was entitled to be treated different. It was an extremely difficult procedure to terminate his employment without it becoming a discrimination suit. We had to document all failed projects, tasks, missed deadlines, errors and mistakes, all things work related, and we needed a lot of them. Unfortunately, I can't by law, say I will never hire someone like this again, but it will be in the back of my mind.

As for as your comments about wearing a skirt being considered sexual I also have to agree to a point. If I were to wear a denim skirt and men's sneakers and a t-shirt, I believe most would think I was just odd and maybe not a pervert of sort. Now if I were to wear a tight fitting pencil skirt and high heels, it screams sexual, transsexual. gay, etc... Even though I present myself as a male in all other aspects. Why do I wear heels? I feel good about myself wearing them, I think they make me look good. Wanting to look good, is that sexual? But us men, that are heterosexual and just enjoy wearing skirts for no other reason other than comfort are very indeed rare. The wife and I went to a small LGBT festival in east Texas last month. I of course, wore a skirt and some high heeled sandals. I was definitely over dressed and the only "straight man wearing a skirt". 90% of the crowd were gay or lesbian. The other 9.99% were full on crossdressers (men presenting themselves as women), but most wearing shorts, flat sandals, make-up and wigs, and of course breasts. Another point you mentioned, I have an Pinterest account and have uploaded a hundred or so pictures of me. A large percentage of my followers fall in this sexual realm. I have had my photos pined in some really sexual boards. Boards with men wearing dresses with erections or wearing panties with erections. And my picture of a straight guy who just likes wearing skirt and heels mixed in with all that crap. These photos of men wearing women's clothes with all the erections so proudly displayed do not help us at all. In fact, as you mentioned, it stereotypes us (the simple skirt wearers) as being sexual perverts. And these sexual numbers for out number us straight non-sexual types.
I was told I have balls for wearing skirts! My reply? "That's because balls this big won't fit in pants!"

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Re: Congress vs empowerment

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Mark as in Mark wrote:... I have had one feminine male in my department, he didn't dress feminine, but had openly confessed he was gay. This guy did nothing, talked on the phone all day, and was always putting others down. He acted like he was entitled to be treated different. ...
This raises an interesting question: if you allow that experience to influence your future decisions, is that part of a learning process or is it a prejudice?

It would be too simplistic to say that all effeminate/homosexual applicants are no good at their jobs - but you would be equally foolish to ignore what has happened.  If the warning signs are there, by all means follow them up, but as a good manager you have the difficult task of separating prejudice from learning and basing your decision about a new applicant on his or her ability to get the job done, regardless of sexual orientation or gender status (or [back on topic] clothing choice).  
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by Sinned »

In another post I listed definitions of cross dressing and they often included wearing women's clothes for a sexual stimulus. Of course some definitions didn't but all the same I think the taint is there. I also think that the fashion of some in the site of wearing ONLY women's clothes and dresses isn't actually helping since the great unwashed simply see cross dresser or transvestite. Yes, the example is there that it is ok for a man to wear women's clothes but a man in a skirt with a man's top, jumper or jacket and men's shoes just brings the look closer to normalcy from their point of view. Maybe my thinking that I don't want a skirt to REPLACE trousers but just as an ADDITIONAL facet to my wardrobe to be worn when and where occasion demands. My view thus may be more moderate but I think it does go down better with those around me as then I don't appear so weird. I attended an end of financial year company meeting last Sunday and I debated with myself beforehand whether to go in shorts or a skirt. The latter won, simply a knee length light cotton in pale blue. Understated, really, and matched pale blue stripes in my man's dress shirt. And, you know what, I felt completely relaxed. I didn't detect any animosity from the others in what I was wearing. It was simply a skirt instead of shorts. Now, I'm sure that if I'd appeared in a woman's top as well then the reactions would have been different. MOH will have nothing to do with sex and skirts; she has said so in the past. It's not a fetish with me either so I am at one with MOH in this regard.

Just my £0.02 worth.
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by moonshadow »

Mark as in Mark wrote:I have had one feminine male in my department, he didn't dress feminine, but had openly confessed he was gay. This guy did nothing, talked on the phone all day, and was always putting others down. He acted like he was entitled to be treated different. It was an extremely difficult procedure to terminate his employment without it becoming a discrimination suit. We had to document all failed projects, tasks, missed deadlines, errors and mistakes, all things work related, and we needed a lot of them. Unfortunately, I can't by law, say I will never hire someone like this again, but it will be in the back of my mind.
It's difficult for me to form an opinion on "feminine males" in the workplace as I've seldom actually worked "along side" of any mainly due to my occupation in maintenance (feminine people tend to not accept occupations such as mine). However I have worked in establishments where the regular employees of the local kitchen might have a feminine male or two. I will admit, they do tend to have somewhat of a "persecution complex", whereas they generally always think some higher up has it out for them. I believe most work hard enough to keep their job, but I'd hardly call them "the best" in the group. They tend to be gossipy, quick to become offended at something, quick to complain about another coworker, and generally quick to engage in work place drama. But again, this is all based on very short observations made while working on equipment. Again, I've never worked with these people on a day to day basis.

Boy like girls on the other hand, in the work place tend to be quiet, reserved, and just work.

As for me, on my self evaluation. I too have found myself guilty of a few characteristics in my list above from time to time. I've been known to gossip, and you don't have to look too far in this site to witness my "persecution complex". One thing that has helped ease the latter is the new job, and the fact that what I do when I'm off is no longer brought up in the work place, and it doesn't seem to be a factor in determining my worth in the company any longer. I'm reasonably sure they all know, they just choose to remain professional about it and not bring it up.

This puts me in a good spot, as I can now learn to correct some mistakes I've made in the past. At work, I just try to do as I'm told, and not run my mouth a lot save for the occasional "work place banter" that everyone does from to time. If it ever comes up again, my ultimate test is to not develop a complex over it like I did at my former job.

I think the key here is to not let our choice in style define our personality. Rather, we should redefine what it means when a man wears a skirt. By doing this in the public eye, I believe we can chip away at the stigma that plagues us.
Sinned wrote:I also think that the fashion of some in the site of wearing ONLY women's clothes and dresses isn't actually helping since the great unwashed simply see cross dresser or transvestite. Yes, the example is there that it is ok for a man to wear women's clothes but a man in a skirt with a man's top, jumper or jacket and men's shoes just brings the look closer to normalcy from their point of view.
Yes, I can understand that. I know I have a few outfits that push the envelope more than a little. However, as indicated above, when I do wear the ultra femme "rigs" I make an extra effort to be a "gentleman" about it. In other words, though I may be dressing rather girly on a particular day, during that day I'm acting very much like a man. The end result is pretty much everyone leaves me be. Also, as indicated above, I'm pretty sure my former boss has went out of his way to make my current boss aware of my Flickr album, and yet my current boss does not seem bothered by this, despite him being a "typical southern guy". I would imagine it's due to the fact that despite my off duty choice in attire, he knows that I do my job, do it well, and don't make a lot of drama over it.

In other words, I think if we can get society past the jarring effect of how we look, what's really important is how we act.

I do believe that if I were to take it a step further, and actually start impersonating women, wearing a padded bra, a wig, hiking my voice, concealing my five-o-clock shadow, and adopting womanlike mannerisms I'd probably have a tougher time in society. In fact, I'm pretty sure using either restroom would be a problem, and I'd eventually be physically assaulted.

But why? Probably because I was living a lie. People don't like being lied to.
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by Grok »

I would suppose that the more one pushes the envelope, the more disconcerting it is to others.

Simply wearing an open ended garments is really pushing the envelope.
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

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Grok wrote:Simply wearing an open ended garments is really pushing the envelope.
Somebody has to do it, and nobody is going to do it for us. So that means that we have to lead. That takes fortitude, stamina, courage, and perseverance. Gee, aren't those masculine traits?

Getting an act of congress won't do it, it usually being easier to get an act of god. Hiding in the shadows or behind closed doors won't do it. Certainly it's not going to come from kids. Who, then, do you nominate for the job?

I think that somebody doesn't grok the problem.
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by moonshadow »

crfriend wrote: Getting an act of congress won't do it,
Oh I don't know... I suspect if wearing a skirt led to an engagement in congress.... you'd never see a man in trousers again! :wink: :lol: :P
-Andrea
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

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Yes, that's ok, but sometimes I think that we can over do on the perception. We may be ok in ourselves and not care what others think but we are trying to project an image that a man can wear clothes of the opposite sex [0] and still be a man, but from a distance they probably can't see that, though girly-cladded, you are trying to act masculine and may not be able to hear your basso profundo. I find that I can get away with more when interacting with the GP when I either wear say, a cami top and shorts or a T-shirt and a skirt than when I wear a cami and a skirt. Not that I receive any hassle either way it's just the attitude of those I'm dealing with. Do you see what I'm saying? Sometimes too much can be too much. I suppose that because I have opposition around me it makes me a bit touchy and more sensitive about the effect of my dress choices on others. For example, the weather is hot at the moment and I wear a skirt all the time around the house. MOH hasn't really bitched [1] and left me alone.

[0] by definition of this site the emphasis is on skirts, although we seem to discuss wearing other items a lot.
[1] much, I still get the occasional digs about "all the time."
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by skirtyscot »

Congress is sex, but only in the sense of intercourse. The USA, if I understand correctly, is governed by Acts of Congress. No wonder your country is so fcuked up!
Keep on skirting,

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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by Gusto10 »

Having read through the remarks, a few of my own.
I guess this would be more an item for the off topic section.
Having checked the Oxford dictionary, congress means a gathering in numbers, so if it would mean sex, than I guess an old fashioned orgy as is described often in relation to the old Roman and Greek bathinghouses, where life was conducted in a way now considered as only for perverts. (Time bound social behavioural code)

Th problem of not being considered discriminatory as employer. The US ….. Department has other thoughts thereon. There are other regulations on site for local staff than for expats. Local staff hasn't had a pay increase, not even the index correction, for years whilst expats have received such. Strike for better conditions will make you redundant. Locally hired US citizens will be treated somewhere in between and will not be corrected if they, as coloured person, discriminate and will be assisted when they consider themselves discriminated. The supreme court case of May last year which indicated the US and non-US citizens working or the Government should be treated equal, has not altered it.

Transvestism etc. A subject already many imes discussed. I believe we all agree to the fact that a woman dressing like a man is by common opinion not considered as a tranvistite while a man wearing clothing from across the aile, is. In my opinion, the main difference is the intention someone has, thus acting like the other gender or not when dressed (partially) like the other gender. But there are many variations to the theme I owuld say. If you google the word, than one will see many explicit crossdressers, few which can be hardly recognised as a man by origin and non of a man wearing a skirt/kilt just for comfort. And history classes at school is also something of last century.
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by Skirted at hom »

skirtyscot wrote:Congress is sex, but only in the sense of intercourse. The USA, if I understand correctly, is governed by Acts of Congress. No wonder your country is so fcuked up!
Yes because they verily seldom act!!!!
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

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Skirted at hom wrote:Yes because they verily seldom act!!!!
Well, they act alright, it's just that they only do so for those who are actually pulling the strings. The little guy holds no sway in the system.
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Re: Congress vs empowerment

Post by moonshadow »

Oh they act... that's all they do is act and put on a show for the sheeple.
-Andrea
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