John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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oldsalt1
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by oldsalt1 »

Please if you sincerely mean it just offer your apology to the ladies don't try to use fancy words to turn it around.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by crfriend »

oldsalt1 wrote:[...] fancy words [...]
I write the way I write. Unapologetically. If you cannot comprehend my writing, that's your issue not mine [0] [4].


[0] Hilariously, I used to routinely get castigated [3] for my use of the language where I used to work by my bosses [2]. I finally got frustrated with the BS and made a now infamous comment which I believe still lives on at the place of, "What am I supposed to do? Use words of one syllable or less?" [1]

[1] To which crack one wag commented -- in writing -- "or less?"

[2] Who may well have been functionally illiterate.

[3] OMG! He used a $3 word!

[4] See "dictionary" (and basic grammar primers).
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

Greetings:

It's been awhile since I visited the Café and it will be probably be even longer before I visit it again, but a friend of mine asked that I take a look at this thread and share my ideas on effective communication.

As an undergraduate I was taught that it is the writer's responsibility to clearly communicate their message and intent; not the reader's to somehow decipher it. Hence the value of good spelling, grammar and effective style.

After graduation I took a writing class because I enjoy writing and wanted to get better at it. It was taught by a woman who had coauthored a number of books and articles with her husband including one that is almost indispensable for anyone living in the beautiful state of Oregon, Oregon for the Curious. Every class included peer critiques of one anothers' submissions. A member of the class who was particularly proud of his voluminous vocabulary, especially the larger and more obscure words, submitted a piece that was particularly weighted down with large words. His answer to the nearly universal criticism was basically to shrug at our low-brow taste. The instructor pointed out that William Buckley Jr., whatever one might think of his opinions, was highly educated and had a prodigious vocabulary but still used his $3 words sparingly and only when no other word would do.

Similarly, William Shakespeare is recognized as the penultimate master of the English language. Examine his works and you'll find that few of the words he uses exceed 3 syllables.

Make of my thoughts what you will.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Ray »

Dave, on that subject, I find Carl's writing and use of language to be elegant, nuanced, understandable - and gently idiosyncratic in its occasional use of slightly archaic or old-fashioned words. That gives character to Carl's writing.

Good points made in your post above, though.

Back on track. John Lewis are to be applauded for their approach. They are a good business - employee controlled - and speak to the heart of the middle classes, where it is possible to instil change in mind sets. A brave move - and one which we surely should all welcome. I recently met their former Chief Exec. He's very approachable, and not without charisma. I wonder if the new policy was instigated under his watch?
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by oldsalt1 »

crfriend wrote:
oldsalt1 wrote:[...] fancy words [...]
I write the way I write. Unapologetically. If you cannot comprehend my writing, that's your issue not mine [0] [4].
I am not asking you to apologize for your manor of writing I think you should apologize to the ladies for the insult.

Although you are trying to turn this personal by suggesting that i should buy a dictionary or that I am unable to comprehend your writing I won't go in that direction I will just say that I find your linguistic showboating superfluous.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by moonshadow »

While Carl may have unfairly generalized women as not being "ladies", I do believe I understand where he is coming from. Sure there are still "ladies" out in about but they are getting few and far between. OldSalt, you live in a reasonably progressive part of the globe, and I don't mean politically, I just mean in mannerisms, socially, etc. I know, I've been to Long Island a few times, and compared to Appalachia, it's quite advanced in social evolution. In fact, people around here often joke about how they can't keep up with you northerners! :wink:

However, once we move towards more "redneck" parts of the globe, I can tell you that Carl's assessment of women is more accurate than you might think. Sure there are exceptions, but not many. I don't know if Jenn has read this thread or not, she hasn't mentioned it if she did, but I don't think she would have been offended by the remark as I know her, Amber (my daughter) and I often speak of how obnoxious the redneck women are around here.

All that being said, there are more wholesome women, even in this area. Granted, it's more of a "biblical" wholesome, whereas the bible clearly states a woman's place, and there are women around here who endeavor to strictly adhere to it's guidelines. Though my personal opinion may be that such practice is unnecessary to be a "lady" I still admire the effort nonetheless, and for what it's worth, they seem like reasonable and thoughtful women, even if they don't really understand why I am the way I am. At least they don't laugh at me and leave me alone for the most part, probably reserving any commentary regarding my attire for their evening prayer, where they will ask the Lord to show mercy on my soul. Unnecessary? Certainly, but I appreciate the thought at any rate.

Regarding the use of big words on this website, let me just say that it's a sight for sore eyes, living in a world where vocabularies get weaker and weaker. There are a lot of intelligent members on this forum, and I will gladly admit that more than a few post have sent me to google "__________ definition", and that's okay! I enjoy the challenge and I'm not ashamed to admit I've learned a word or two since joining this site and happily use them in my daily routine. Many on this site, do not simply strike is as "men", but rather true "gentlemen", polite and thoughtful. Again, a sight for sore eyes in a society dominated by facebook and twitter one liners. Unfortunately the use of larger more complex words and statements has the side effect of isolating one's self, especially in a region such as this. People increasingly regard me as "snooty", or "stuck up", when in fact I'm just trying to have a conversation. The endeavor towards enlightenment and intelligence is a lonely one for sure, but I think it's worth it, or at least I hope so.

Regarding the fitting rooms. I admit to being a little confused as to what exactly happened here, however there are a few stores around here with single occupancy fitting rooms set in a sort of "communal" corridor, and nobody seems to be getting groped or bothered. The local Target (as in retail store) in Bristol VA is one of them. When I tried on a dress some time ago, I sought the "men's" room, however only to find out all rooms are unisex. Please, lets not get into the whole "men are pervs" argument, when research clearly indicates that such a position is nothing more than fear mongering, and in a way, downright misandrist. Yes, a lot of men can be perverted, however so can women. I've never heard of a single fitting "room" that is communal, to my knowledge all are single occupancy, even if they share a corridor, so what's the problem? It's that same old chestnut, "man grabs a woman's butt"? He's a sexist pig, "woman rubs a man's inner thigh?", oh, that's okay, that's sexy right? :roll: As Judah has pointed out in many post, elsewhere in the world people don't worry about this near as much as we do, and they get by just fine. The West simply has a control oriented ultra-Puritan complex that it needs to get over. Biblically, we're all sinners, and legally nobody should be convicted unless they committed a crime, further to even accuse without just cause leads us down a slippery slope....

When that GoodWill attendant opened the "LADIES" fitting room for me (not at my request, it's just what she did), I admit to being just a little nervous inside, thinking that being well in the south, Bristol Tennessee of all places, upon opening the door to exit, four or five burly redneck men would be waiting to beat my face in. And sure enough, I found out a customer did complain about us, only they tried to turn us in for "switching tags". The store clerk was obliged to investigate and basically found out there was nothing to the accusation and pretty much recognized the other customer as a hate filled bigot trying to cause us problems, and politely "told the accuser where to go".

It's not the man in the fitting room that is the threat to children, it's the fear mongering, and the rednecks that have had a daily digest of fear and hate filled rhetoric piped into their homes via the local cable companies. THEY are the ones that are causing the problems. It is fare more dangerous to be a non-conformist, eccentric, or unusual in any way in western society. Everyday millions of children are indoctrinated into the ways of bigotry, hate, and supremacy over others, and our society turns a blind eye to all of that brainwashing and chooses to rather focus on the matter of who's using what fitting room, bathroom, etc.

Regarding the talk show that started this thread, well I've never heard of it, but it sounds like you folks over in the U.K. have the same garbage being sent over your airways that we do here. Do yourselves a favor, get a pair of dykes, go behind the TV set, and cut that damned cable! Take it from someone who lives in the thick of cable "news" country, you don't want this kind of cancer eating at your society over there on the other side of the Atlantic. It's destroying our nation from the inside out. It's downright toxic! You'll note I didn't pick on a particular "news" channel, ALL are guilty, all are garbage, or "rubbish" as you all say over there.
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oldsalt1
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by oldsalt1 »

Moon, I am working and don't have time right now to completely reply.
Do me one favor, ask Jenn about Cr's remark. I would like to hear her
comment on the subject.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Elisabetta »

Okay I'm here and have read this thread. My opinion is as followed. I'm not offended in reading Carl's comment I think he's referring to some woman who present themselves in a manly way. Attitude, clothing style their personal character. What I mean is the ones who wear whatever they want and don't have to worry about the slack they get from doing so. While I will say I am a lady and take pride in how I dress. I don't believe I'm any better than anyone else out there when it comes to what I wear. Meaning men should be allowed to dress in how they please. I think that personally in my opinion is where he was referring to woman being fauxmen. Now if Carl used my name and said my version of Jenn is a fauxmen then yeah I'd be offended but he didn't he's just referring to some women not all.

Ps. Oldsalt thanks for thinking of me but he didn't offend me hun. I think he's just speaking in general context.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by crfriend »

Jenn and Moon have both hit very close to the target here, so it's clear that my general point was getting across.

One of the reasons I'm rather discouraged about the whole social game today is that the entire notion of a "lady" (and likewise, "gentleman" and its cousin, "Renaissance man") has become entirely obsolete in any sort of a functional way. I'm not advocating in any way a return to a patriarchal culture, but rather mourn the loss of general civility and the notion of being genteel. We, as a culture, seem to have somehow left the entire notion of culture behind and are now engaged in a race to the bottom to see who can act worse than the next one -- and this applies to men as well as women. It cuts straight across with many women trying to beat the guys to the bottom. Men have just naturally been slightly more boorish, hence my commentary about "fauxmen" when it comes to the modern behaviour and mannerisms (not to mention dress) of many modern women. We've got a lot of this on our shoulders, guys; maybe it's time to "up our game" a bit.

Like skirts, which also seem to be going obsolete in some parts, civility and decent manners go a long way to making the entire fabric of society work better -- and civility and decent manners are on the wane. I'm not invoking "table manners" here, either: I'm pointing up just how rare it seems today to hear someone say, "Thank you" for something or to make small talk when a silence might be uncomfortable or awkward. When we fail to communicate properly and civilly, we all lose. When we're rude or inconsiderate, we all lose. The sad part in this is that being considerate, civil, and genteel really takes very little effort. I'm thankful that this little part of the world still has a clue about that and the folks here generally comport themselves very well. "Random acts of beauty" are a thing of wonder; partake in them; participate in them; and precipitate them. Take a bow, everybody.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by alexthebird »

Like skirts, which also seem to be going obsolete in some parts, civility and decent manners go a long way to making the entire fabric of society work better -- and civility and decent manners are on the wane. I'm not invoking "table manners" here, either: I'm pointing up just how rare it seems today to hear someone say, "Thank you" for something or to make small talk when a silence might be uncomfortable or awkward. When we fail to communicate properly and civilly, we all lose. When we're rude or inconsiderate, we all lose. The sad part in this is that being considerate, civil, and genteel really takes very little effort.
While I'm somewhat inclined to be sympathetic, I think we also have to acknowledge that there are times where context makes a huge difference and that civility and gentility are not sufficient. My wife and I spend two weeks in Paris every summer - this last trip was our eleventh. I absolutely love Paris and fantasize about retiring there, but life in Paris is different than life in the US. To make it relevant to this forum, I would estimate that 2/3 of French women wear skirts or dresses, nearly all French men wear fitted trousers and shirts, and t-shirts, leggings, athletic wear, and baggy shorts are unknown. Everyone says s'il vous plait and merci, but it is a cool formality. Few engage in conversation for the sake of it and few exhibit signs of what Americans would call friendliness. And it isn't just a language thing, because I speak French and only use English when talking with my wife.

I live in Philadelphia, in a neighborhood that is partially gentrified, partially old school Italian-American, and partially on the fringes of the gayborhood. I'm pretty much the only person in the neighborhood I know who regularly wears skirts, with the exception of a handful of women who wear the "uniform" (skirt suit, white blouse, dark hose, pumps) to work. Most people dress like, well, slobs. T-shirts, worn shorts, leggings/yoga pants/gym shorts, etc. Please and thank you aren't always part of the conversation but you are much more likely to encounter a broad smile, a totally off-the-cuff conversation with someone you don't know, or a stranger willing to help out when you least expect it.

I'm not sure what conclusion to make out of all this except that I'm not willing to elevate civility over friendliness nor to equate clothing style with anything else in particular.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Grok »

I'm trying to imagine what the ladies and gentlemen of the future will be wearing. They may not conform to the images of the past.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Gusto10 »

Having read through this conversation, I have to conclude that it's very interesting as it touches many issues.
To start of with, the JL labeling of childerens clothing. In a time when it seams to become customary to have a no-gender society, such is a logical step.
The use of words as chosen by CRFriend, I can only applaud it. Why not, why the disregard art 19 of the universal declaration of human rights, freedom of expression? Why do we need to think for the other gender which, considering the developments, doesn't exist anymore?
The usage of s'íl vous plait and merci in Paris is just one of the few thing that resembles Paris and the rest of France. Outside Paris it's in small villages customary to say Bonjour whenever encountering someone. Sitting on a terras of the local bar tabac you can easily strike up a conversation.
Back to the world of non political correctness, In my opinion women tend to dress in general as slobs, save in specific area's. Men dress mostly indescript either jeans of suits from the suitcompany. The use of the internet, even though it enables us to have this communication, is a serious danger for interaction as humans. I do think we are already in a society as described in the book 1984 by Orwell, a society now being enhanced by Elon Musk and the Chinese. Do we want to live in a society which dictates what we have to do and how we have to think? Being brainwashed by the media?
Please be yourself and accept the other as he is whether in skirt, dress, trousers including those awfull jeans, or whatever and however one wants to express himself. Women do tend to speak up for them selves, no need to do so for them.
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Fred in Skirts »

Gusto10 wrote:Please be yourself and accept the other as he is whether in skirt, dress, trousers including those awfull jeans, or whatever and however one wants to express himself. Women do tend to speak up for them selves, no need to do so for them.
:soapbox:
We need to speak up for ourselves! And speak very loudly at that. If we don't start getting noisy about our rights to dress as we please then it may come to pass that we will not be able to later on.

I no longer wear pants or shorts at all, my dress code has me in skirts and or dresses. I enjoy the freedom of skirts and dresses and will make myself heard when challenged. Why do we not make more noise? It is the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. There are a lot of us here in the cafe, and we need to make ourselves heard well beyond the confines of the cafe.

:rock:
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by Ray »

Re speaking up for men:

I speak up for men AND women, usually on different subjects, I speak up where I see unfairness and/or inequality. Women remain the subject of discrimination or are treated unequally in many areas; pointing this out and seeking a level playing field between the sexes/genders can only be the right thing - for women AND men. Of course, I speak up for men - as we in turn face discrimination - so I try to call that out.

Ray
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Re: John Lewis degenderizing kids' clothing labels

Post by crfriend »

Fred in Skirts wrote:We need to speak up for ourselves! And speak very loudly at that.
I don't think we need to speak loudly -- and certainly not shrilly -- but rather with that quiet but forceful voice that confidence gives one. Bellowing won't help. and certainly whining won't, but few can help but be struck -- and sometimes dumb-struck -- by the voice of a quiet and confident individual who truly believes in his message and is more than happy to "walk the walk" instead of lip-syncing the blather.

Sometimes we do this entirely non-verbally. Every time we venture out into the world with confidence and panache we "say" more with our actions than we could get across with a speech or a pamphlet.
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