What makes a skirt manly v feminine

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.

Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby DonP » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:48 pm

I'm not locked in any box. I enjoy being masculine and appearing that way. That's who I am, and I don't dress like a woman because I don't want to. If that's what you like -fine. I am just as entitled to my preferred look as you are.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby crfriend » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:14 pm

Grok wrote:[Entirely botched quote trimmed because I wasn't going to take the time to correct the attribution.]
Grok wrote:I can see where a young man-if he intends to raise a family-must, nevertheless, conform to an image of traditional masculinity.

However, if you are an older male, you age into a time when there is no point in staying locked in that stultifying little box.

This depends on many factors, so it's not going to be a one-size-fits-all (or even most). True enough, a guy in a skirt will make the more closed-minded women self-select out of the running -- which might be a desirable outcome. I suspect most women who are Hell-bent on forcing "their man" into their own dream vision (which has corrosive effects) would also self-select out, thus potentially saving the guy a heck of a lot of grief later on.

Furthermore, breeding is not the be-all and end-all of life. First off, if you're not fully functional on your own you're not going to be fully functional in a relationship, and who in their right mind would think it responsible or ethical to bring a child into the world at the present time? We can be high-functioning members of society without children and we can leave lasting legacies that do not depend on having offspring.
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bozo filters

Postby Grok » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:50 pm

crfriend wrote:
Grok wrote:

. True enough, a guy in a skirt will make the more closed-minded women self-select out of the running -- which might be a desirable outcome. I suspect most women who are Hell-bent on forcing "their man" into their own dream vision (which has corrosive effects) would also self-select out, thus potentially saving the guy a heck of a lot of grief later on.
Skirts as bozo filters! :D

Hmmm.... It just occurred to me, if someone asks why you are wearing a skirt, you can say that its a conversation piece.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Sinned » Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:03 pm

I was browsing the Matalan site this afternoon looking at dresses and skirts and up popped a mini-survey and the last question was how can we make it better to which I answered:

You could design a range of dresses and skirts for men satisfying their needs. And if you don't know what those needs are then that's what research is for. There is a HUGE unsatisfied demand out there - fill it.

Or words to that effect.

I got the usual throwaway answer: Thank you, your opinion is important to us.

Yeah, except when we say something you don't want to hear. Just my little prod at them.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Daryl » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:17 am

DonP wrote:I very much care what others think when I am out in public wearing a skirt. I don't want to be considered a freak or an eccentric. I don't even want to be noticed. I would love to see at least one other man in a skirt and preferably, many others.


I cared a lot until I got used to it, and now I only care slightly and then mostly only when I am consciously pressing my own limits (which mainly means how far I cross the gender lines).

I'm pretty sure most people most of the time conclude nothing stronger than "different" or maybe a gentle "eccentric". From people's reactions to me, "freak" is not on their minds.

It did help at first when I saw other men in skirts. Now I just go catty inside and think things like "ooh that's quite femme but it looks good on him" or "heh, I remember when I was in that stage".
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Gusto10 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:18 pm

Daryl wrote:
DonP wrote:I very much care what others think when I am out in public wearing a skirt. I don't want to be considered a freak or an eccentric. I don't even want to be noticed. I would love to see at least one other man in a skirt and preferably, many others.


I cared a lot until I got used to it, and now I only care slightly and then mostly only when I am consciously pressing my own limits (which mainly means how far I cross the gender lines).

I'm pretty sure most people most of the time conclude nothing stronger than "different" or maybe a gentle "eccentric". From people's reactions to me, "freak" is not on their minds.

It did help at first when I saw other men in skirts. Now I just go catty inside and think things like "ooh that's quite femme but it looks good on him" or "heh, I remember when I was in that stage".


I guess that you have to create a picture that works and doesn't cry: look I'm a men trying to be a woman.

I just read in the newspapers that the Dutch medcare will provide now also for TG's to get artificial boobs in order to complete their transition. I do wonder why the tax and medcare premiumpayer should pay for someone's inidividual choice.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Caultron » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:41 pm

Gusto10 wrote:...I just read in the newspapers that the Dutch medcare will provide now also for TG's to get artificial boobs in order to complete their transition. I do wonder why the tax and medcare premiumpayer should pay for someone's inidividual choice.

I suppose it's to correct the infirmity of being trapped in the wrong gender's body. That, plus the fact that transgenderism has become politically trendy.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby beachlion » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:56 pm

Gusto10 wrote:...... I just read in the newspapers that the Dutch medcare will provide now also for TG's to get artificial boobs in order to complete their transition. I do wonder why the tax and medcare premiumpayer should pay for someone's inidividual choice.


Now you know what a caring society looks like. Sometimes it is a little over the top but in Europe governments care. And they got elected by the people as in all democracies.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby pelmut » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:30 pm

Gusto10 wrote:I just read in the newspapers that the Dutch medcare will provide now also for TG's to get artificial boobs in order to complete their transition. I do wonder why the tax and medcare premiumpayer should pay for someone's inidividual choice.

Being born transgender is not an individual choice, it is one of many natural human conditions like ginger hair or brown eyes (but much less common). There is a small percentage of transgender people in every society; in some societies it is accepted that they live their lives in a gender rôle which is different from their sex, other societies (American and European) cannot cope with this and the transgender person is forced to change their apearance to fit in with their society's distorted ideas - or risk being ostracised or hounded to death.

At the point in a transgender person's life where they are finally driven to change their appearance (which I presume is the choice you are referring to), the only options are transition or suicide - and I am sure you would not advocate blocking their transition and driving them to suicide.

At some time in the future, our society may learn to accept transgender people whose body shape does not (to our eyes) match their gender; but until that happens, we are the ones forcing the the 'choice' of transition upon them and we should be the ones who support them through it.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Daryl » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:20 am

pelmut wrote:
Gusto10 wrote:I just read in the newspapers that the Dutch medcare will provide now also for TG's to get artificial boobs in order to complete their transition. I do wonder why the tax and medcare premiumpayer should pay for someone's inidividual choice.

Being born transgender is not an individual choice, it is one of many natural human conditions like ginger hair or brown eyes (but much less common). There is a small percentage of transgender people in every society; in some societies it is accepted that they live their lives in a gender rôle which is different from their sex, other societies (American and European) cannot cope with this and the transgender person is forced to change their apearance to fit in with their society's distorted ideas - or risk being ostracised or hounded to death.

At the point in a transgender person's life where they are finally driven to change their appearance (which I presume is the choice you are referring to), the only options are transition or suicide - and I am sure you would not advocate blocking their transition and driving them to suicide.

At some time in the future, our society may learn to accept transgender people whose body shape does not (to our eyes) match their gender; but until that happens, we are the ones forcing the the 'choice' of transition upon them and we should be the ones who support them through it.


That makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that transgender people would rather be able to exist as what they perceive as their true gender but without altering their bodies, and that they only want their bodies altered to match other people's expectations? For example, a muscular man with a beard, no boobs and no hips would be perfectly happy staying like that so long as the rest of the world accepted his gender as "female" nonetheless?

I've known a few M2F transgender people and though I've never discussed that idea with them, I think they would disagree. Possibly "two spirit" people are more akin to what you're talking about.

In all health insurance systems whether public or private, there are treatments that are not paid for, including ones that are very arguably "necessary", including life-and-death necessity. If we didn't do this we would have unsustainable systems. Gender dysphoria may not be a choice but that doesn't automatically mean that insurance should pay for SRS (sex reassignment surgery), much less everything that can be included under that banner. Increasingly today gender is being treated as a choice, in fact as a human right to assert according to one's own wishes. We should be guarded about letting patients make their own diagnosis then expecting us to pay for all their preferred treatments, especially ones that would be considered only cosmetic were they for anyone else (eg. breast implants and facial electrolysis).
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Daryl » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:39 am

Caultron wrote:
Gusto10 wrote:...I just read in the newspapers that the Dutch medcare will provide now also for TG's to get artificial boobs in order to complete their transition. I do wonder why the tax and medcare premiumpayer should pay for someone's inidividual choice.

I suppose it's to correct the infirmity of being trapped in the wrong gender's body. That, plus the fact that transgenderism has become politically trendy.


Yeah, "trapped in the wrong body" is still a compelling idea for many. It's too bad this isn't the far future where we'll be able to enter a booth, drop 75 cents into a slot, and walk out with the body and sex we want, at least on a rental basis.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby pelmut » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:01 am

Daryl wrote:[...]
That makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that transgender people would rather be able to exist as what they perceive as their true gender but without altering their bodies, and that they only want their bodies altered to match other people's expectations? For example, a muscular man with a beard, no boobs and no hips would be perfectly happy staying like that so long as the rest of the world accepted his gender as "female" nonetheless?

Yes, there are some societies where that is (or was) acceptable. As long as the person contributed to the society, it did not matter what rôle they did it in. A young lad, on reaching puberty, could either be accepted as a 'brave' or as a 'squaw'. If he was happier cooking, sewing and looking after children, it would have made no sense to force him to join a hunting party where he would have been more hindrance than help. As long as he wasn't just an idle burden, society was prepared to accept what he could best offer.

In modern western society, a woman who is strong enough, and suitably inclined, can take on a job that was traditionally 'man's work' without much comment (or sometimes with approval). One of the reasons why there are fewer FtM [Female to Male] transitions is because we are prepared to accept someone who looks like a woman doing a man's job*. This acceptance does not extend nearly as much to men doing women's jobs (or living life in the rôle of a woman), so there is much greater pressure from society for MtF transition. Heaven knows, we have enough problems, external and internal, wearing a skirt for the first time!

Obviously a large number of transpeople would still like a body to match their brain - remember, they are also members of society and have been conditioned like the rest of us - but being accepted as they are would make a huge difference to the suicide rate.


[* Imagine the outcry if a woman bus or lorry driver was told she had to have a double mastectomy because her appearance as a woman might upset the passengers or other drivers.]
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Daryl » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:25 pm

pelmut wrote:
Daryl wrote:[...]
That makes no sense to me. Are you suggesting that transgender people would rather be able to exist as what they perceive as their true gender but without altering their bodies, and that they only want their bodies altered to match other people's expectations? For example, a muscular man with a beard, no boobs and no hips would be perfectly happy staying like that so long as the rest of the world accepted his gender as "female" nonetheless?

Yes, there are some societies where that is (or was) acceptable. As long as the person contributed to the society, it did not matter what rôle they did it in. A young lad, on reaching puberty, could either be accepted as a 'brave' or as a 'squaw'. If he was happier cooking, sewing and looking after children, it would have made no sense to force him to join a hunting party where he would have been more hindrance than help. As long as he wasn't just an idle burden, society was prepared to accept what he could best offer.

In modern western society, a woman who is strong enough, and suitably inclined, can take on a job that was traditionally 'man's work' without much comment (or sometimes with approval). One of the reasons why there are fewer FtM [Female to Male] transitions is because we are prepared to accept someone who looks like a woman doing a man's job*. This acceptance does not extend nearly as much to men doing women's jobs (or living life in the rôle of a woman), so there is much greater pressure from society for MtF transition. Heaven knows, we have enough problems, external and internal, wearing a skirt for the first time!

Obviously a large number of transpeople would still like a body to match their brain - remember, they are also members of society and have been conditioned like the rest of us - but being accepted as they are would make a huge difference to the suicide rate.

[* Imagine the outcry if a woman bus or lorry driver was told she had to have a double mastectomy because her appearance as a woman might upset the passengers or other drivers.]


I really do not think acceptance in the pink-collar job market has anything to do with getting surgically altered to look like the opposite sex. If I were to offer a guess as to why there were many more MtF transitions than FtM I'd get into trouble, so I won't do that, but I am certain it is not because they all want to be nurses or housewives. Two MtF transitioners I've personally met (and one I still know) were inclined to "male" work from the beginning and remained so. (Both are electricians, by sheer coincidence.) In both cases I get the strong impression that feminine presentation, including all that implies about social interactions as well as appearance and body feel, is its own motivation.

Now, if you're a man, once you've decided to have a fully feminine presentation, there's no doubt that wanting to "pass" would become a big motivator to transition fully, legally and even surgically. The motivation there would be to not be considered a freak, which would hinder acceptance into ANY job market or social scene, not just sexually differentiated ones. That doesn't explain why a man would want to have a fully feminine presentation in the first place, however, much less why wanting it would be so intense one would "do it" in the closet or seek full transition in order to do it 7/24. And this is where the question of the optionality of it comes in. Suicides happen post-op too, and some would argue that treatment of gender dysphoria that does NOT involve "transition" is as or more effective at preventing suicide and promoting emotional health.

As I write this I am sitting in my pretty circle skirt, quite aware that having all that pretty on me actually affects my mood. I think I could've convinced myself that I was "trans" when I was younger, having this experience alone as a starting point. The intensity of the subjective experience alone does not justify any particular conclusion about how to solve the mental problem however. Public reaction to the perception that "trans" has become a fad, expanding due to over-indulgence, is what is motivating much opposition to public funding. We know how easily teenagers and young adults can passionately convince themselves of whatever they want, and passionately demand it, and we don't trust that. And the more passionately they argue for it, the less we trust it.

I deeply suspect that it is true that if (fully or partially) feminine presentation became more accepted for men, there would be some percentage fewer men seeking MtF transition, and fewer suicides for lack of it. But I also think that has limits because it is not only social bias at work.

LASTLY, I am intrigued at where the female bus driver breast analogy comes from. I can indeed imagine the outcry, but I'm not sure what it means in this context. Have men in traditionally female roles experienced, oh, being told they should shave more closely, or something?
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby pelmut » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:17 pm

Daryl wrote: Suicides happen post-op too, and some would argue that treatment of gender dysphoria that does NOT involve "transition" is as or more effective at preventing suicide and promoting emotional health.

That has been thoroughly discredited - and the professionals who promoted it (in the face of all the evidence to the contrary) are no longer practicing. Unfortunately it is still being quoted as 'fact' by a few people who value their own agendas above human lives.
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Re: What makes a skirt manly v feminine

Postby Big and Bashful » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:57 pm

(Second attempt- after kitten wiped out first reply) In my last job we had a chef for a while, a typical Scottish "hard man", not large but wiry and somebody who people generally wouldn't mess with. I later discovered he was female originally as many folk knew him/her from school as a lass. You would never have guessed and I truly believe that mentally he must have been born male, just in a body with the wrong options chosen at manufacture. Apparently even when female at school he did not behave in a typical female fashion.
There is a fascinating blog on line with many youtube entries from a person called Isabella Bennett, this is interesting because she was born male, an identical twin, the two twin brothers formed a band/theatre group called Steam Powered Giraffe. Over the past couple of years he has been transitioning to female and doing it in public, talking about why and how he/she decided to go through the change. You see some of the emotional turmoil she has gone through. All made more complicated by the public life as a member of the group where she has had to make her character change from male to female.
More importantly the group have produced some excellent ear worms!
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